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Mao Asada reworking jumps: Why?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by LilJen, Nov 29, 2010.

  1. wonderlen

    wonderlen New Member

    Her jumps has always been small compare to Miki or Yuna, and she relie on fast rotation to compensate for that. If work when you are 15-16 years old, but once you get older and your body get fuller its harder to get the rotation done and thats why Mao has problem with underrotation. On top of that, on her toe pick jump, she goes very low and spring it for heigh.

    But if she wants to get one thing that got a way, O gold, its better in the long run. Like someone said, she pretty much won every thing there is to be won, except the Olympic gold.
  2. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Well, on the axel, I find it worse than before. But on the Flip, it's better, but she lost the rhythm on the jump. ;)
  3. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Sew Happy

    Whenever you tear down your technique, everything goes: timing, rhythm, and confidence. This isn't a two week process. More like two years. Mao seems unphased by her results this season. Thank heavens for that. If she listened to all of the doom and gloom on the boards, she'd give it up.

    Before she put all of her time and emphasis on the 3A, she had better speed, stroking, and edge control. Her skating degraded horribly in the two seasons she worked with Tarasova. Long distance coaching just doesn't work, nor does working with assistants of the long-distance coach.

    I can see signs that her speed, flow and edges are improving. I look forward to seeing the jumps come around too. But it will all take time. Lots of it.

    I've said it before and I'll say it again: Figure skating fans are not a patient bunch. But they should be because this sport is a marathon not a sprint.
  4. CantALoop

    CantALoop Well-Known Member

    That's what's so frustrating to see - here's a lady who was a wunderkind that burst onto the scene landing triple axels and triple-triples and attempting quad salchows in practice. Then somehow she lost the toe and salchow (when/why did this happen?). She dropped the flutz, made an attempt to get it back before 2010, then dropped it again. She dropped the triple-triple due to the old UR penalties and swapped in triple axel combos instead. Now the triple axel and flip have left her - leaving her with only the triple loop as her only reliable triple and even that one is prone to UR calls.

    It's really sad to see her go from a jumping bean to having even fewer and less reliable triples than a novice girl. At the Japan Open/NHK/TEB I was hoping to see *some* evidence of improvement even if she fell, but it's disheartening to see her jumps have even smaller height and the flutz is back to the same obvious inside edge and not even landed correctly.

    And maybe it's just me, but she looks unsure and lost out there and the confidence and determination she used to have is not present any more. That's why I'm really wondering if competing and placing well below the podium is doing her any favors because she hasn't been the picture of consistency as of recent years.
  5. krenseby

    krenseby New Member

    But did she really need to drop the flutz? I mean, why not keep on doing it, even with the deductions that flutzing entails? You say that she tried to improve it, but then dropped that project? The lutz is such an important jump, it seems unwise to stop working on it even for a while.
  6. miki88

    miki88 Active Member

    She didn't lose her toe and sal. In fact, she has been landing her sal in every competition this season. Kinda ironic, since it has been hailed as a problem jump for her. Her toe jump has improved from before and she landed it consistently last season. From the practices, her flip seemed improved. She was landing axels in practices. They might have been UR, but she was landing them.
    I agree with Dragonlady, I felt Mao handled this as well as she possibly could. If she weren't determined, she would have just withdrawn. I heard some say the sponsers wouldn't let her but meh. If Mao asked, they'd have let her. I think her sponsers would much rather see her come back in a better shape than to see her struggle. Maybe it's just me but I also felt she didn't give up on the performance this season, especially in her LP despite the popped jumps/falls.
  7. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Sew Happy

    Mao stopped doing the salchow because working on the quad messed up her timing on the triple.
  8. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

    Amen to that! The reality is that Mao is not going to please everyone all the time so as the song says, she might as well please herself. If this is what is needs to do, then she should do it.
  9. CantALoop

    CantALoop Well-Known Member

    Mao tried to fix her flutz twice - once during the off-season before with Tarasova (which was less of a lutz and more like minimizing the edge change to a split second), yet the lutz never appeared during the Olympic season. She tried again this summer with Nagakubo and it looked a lot more convincing as she was actually trying to hold onto the edge and turn out her knee. Now it's back to the obvious inside edge that she was doing before Tarasova and Nagakubo, and with less success.
  10. burntBREAD

    burntBREAD Active Member

    What she was doing with Nagakubo really did look like it was working, and all of his skaters (Suzuki, Imai) have pretty solid jumps with good height. But Sato is great for basic skating and speed.
  11. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

    I remember a while ago there was an article on muscle memory that stated when you started to think about a process, you messed up the muscle memory therefore moves would go wrong.
    I think, the hard part for Mao would be getting that muscle memory back. With many different coaches her mind probably never got around to really "save" one version of how to do a jump. There was a lot of different input by a lot of different people and never just one version of how to do it.
    The question is, if she'll be able to successfully relearn her jumps or if the many coaches actually messed up her chances.

    The other question is, will she still be able to make the Worlds team? will the Japanese federation keep her scores high enough to send her if they have three clean skates at Nationals and she were to mess up? What happens when she's not selected and doesn't go to Worlds this year? I know that she might make the World team the following year without a problem, I'm more concerned about international judges (who are unbiased and of course, only judge what they see :p)

    I've never been her biggest fan but she's got a lot of courage to do what many never even think about doing and I sincerely hope her many coaches haven't messed up her chances and her effort is rewarded in the end!! No one deserves to put so much work into something and then not see it pay of!!
  12. miki88

    miki88 Active Member

    I don't know. I mean Suzuki still gets edge calls. And it's not like Sato's students' jumps are not good. I always felt his students had good flow out of their jumps. It would have been good for her to continue to work with Nakagubo but he never signed up to be her main coach (cuz of Akiko), so it couldn't be helped.
  13. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

    So is she really reworking her jumps or just having an spectacularly awful season?
  14. Anita18

    Anita18 Well-Known Member

    Right. I admire Mao greatly for being aware of (let alone going ahead and fixing) her flaws, but one also has to wonder how this is making her look in the eyes of the judges. Forward momentum is never a bad thing, especially when it comes to a judged sport.

    I would think that it would have been better to take the season off so she could fix her jumps without worrying about traveling to comps or even choreographing/practicing programs. :( Liebestraum is SO much better than last year's Bells and it would make me sad if she never got to skate it well.
  15. dundas

    dundas Banned Member

    mao is another victim of rabid armchair fans' call for 'retooling jump technique to be a better skater':rolleyes:

    I'm wondering when she'll be able to retool back her jumps, perhaps never. :rolleyes: sad since Mao is such a talented skater.:saint:
  16. IceAlisa

    IceAlisa discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado

  17. eyh201

    eyh201 New Member

    I think the reason why Mao doesn't skip the season could be her endorsement contracts. But it was said that one of her endorsement contracts was recently canceled due to the unsatisfying GP results. Maybe it could give Mao leeway for rescheduling the rest of the season.
  18. vodkashot

    vodkashot Active Member

    Out of curiosity, which one of Mao's endorsement contracts were cancelled?
  19. Extranjera

    Extranjera Member

    I'm curious too, but I don't think that's the reason why she doesn't skip GP season.

    Asada or Sato (I don't remember who of them) said that competing is part of practice, that's why she doesn't take a season off. You can be able to do some jumps during practices but not be able to do them under pressure during competition. If she cared about placement she wouldn't try to do 3F, 3Lu (like Kostner does) and 3A.

    I love Bells of Moscow, it completely differentiated from programs of other skaters. Liebestraum is softer and it better fits her, but it's also a bit Zzzzzz...

    I know most of people don't like BoM, but you have to forgive me my strange taste :D I'm the one who consider new SP of Ando to be her the best SP so far. I suppose I'm one of the few people who think that.
    gotoschool likes this.
  20. Prancer

    Prancer Slave to none, master to all Staff Member

    Evidence, please, that Mao, the Japanese federation, and Mr. Sato make their decisions about Mao's training based on "the fans?"
  21. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    I think it's ridiculous that some of us have watched 2 sps and 3 lps from her this season, hardly 20 minutes of her skating, and call themselves disappointed, when she must have had experienced the most god-awful and discouraging 8 months of training.

    The reason why she didn't just take the season off while reworking her jumps was, I think, besides endorsements and Worlds in Japan, that she is a very competitive person and thrives when the big comps come around. Knowing a competition is coming is what motivates her to work harder.
  22. Feb

    Feb Member

    I’d admire her if she’s refixing her jump technique for long-term success, but her PCS goes down each time she gives an awful skate. Would that hurt her both in the short term and eventually in the long term? After all, we don’t know how much would refixing jump technique help her TES, and if PCS also drops…
    Love all skaters who show artistry
  23. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Sew Happy

    Her PCS dropped because the speed, flow, power and ice coverage of her non-jump elements disappeared in her quest for the 3A. There’s this false assumption that if she’s working on her jumps, they’re the only part of her skating that’s affected but this isn’t the case. There are comments to the effect that if she’s working on her lutz, why can’t she land her 3A any more. When you renovate part of your home, the entire house is affected by the mess, not just the rooms you’re working on. And the house doesn’t return to normal until all of the renovations are complete. The same theory applies here.

    Working on her 3A cost Mao her PCS. It’s that simple. Her PCS was comparable to Yu-Na’s when she decided to focus on the 3A. Her spins, footwork, speed, flow, everything, went downhill except the 3A.

    And even though the working on the 3A was successful in that she did land 3 of them at the Olympics which was her goal, it failed because what she lost on the rest of her elements, and her skating skills, was worth more points overall, than what she gained.
  24. Extranjera

    Extranjera Member

    Last season Mao got level 4 for all spins & spiral sequence and level 3 for step sequence. I wouldn't say "everything, went downhill except the 3A"
  25. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Sew Happy

    Don't look at her levels, look at her GoE for those elements. It went down.
  26. Extranjera

    Extranjera Member

    I compare her results from worlds in 2008 & 2010 and she got higher scores for all those elements in 2010.

    Why should I look only at GoE instead of level? Both are very important.
  27. Kwantumleap

    Kwantumleap Well-Known Member

    She got bored.
  28. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Because we are talking about QUALITY here, and that's what GOE reflects?
  29. CantALoop

    CantALoop Well-Known Member

    There's no doubt her training has been difficult and arduous, but it's those 20 minutes that count towards her world standings, medal count, and reputation.

    I'm disappointed because it really seemed like there were glints of hope that Mao was making progress during her summer training with Nagakubo. Those clips were very brief, but I remember seeing lutz attempts with actual counterrotation "spring" into them, decent attempts to hold a real BO edge, and Mao holding her landings and getting more flow out of them.

    I know from my and others' experiences that even if a skater is reworking their technique, old habits tend to come out during competition. That might be part of the reason why Mao shows no evidence of her summer improvements, but I'm shocked at how the bad habits are even worse.
  30. Extranjera

    Extranjera Member

    I know, but level of element is more objective evaluation than GoE. Moreover both of them make scores higher and that's the most important thing in this case.

    And concerning steps: WTT in 2009 was first competition when Asada tried to do three 3A and she got level 4 for step sequence. How many skaters do you know whose steps are worth level 4? I think it proves she doesn't focus only on 3A.