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Looking for discussion on "copying" of lifts

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by wildfire, Dec 5, 2010.

  1. wildfire

    wildfire New Member

    I'd love to hear you opinion on original lifts/moves and those that use others moves versus creating their own. How do you feel when a couple has come up with a new lift idea and one of their competitiors decides to use it. I know the rules don't prohibit this, but do you think a conversation about the ethics of this is one worth having?:soapbox:
  2. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

    Isn't every move original at first? M/D came up with a pairs spin that was then used by seemingly every pairs team out there for far too long, but I don't think that M&D had some "rights" to it. In some ways, the imitators can end up shining light on the originator because after a bit you see how very difficult some moves are to do well. Kwan popularized the change-edge spiral, and lots of others have done it -- most all looking much the worse in comparison to Kwan's. I suspect her reputation for the change-edge spiral has only been enhanced by the number of wobbly, weak-edged, powerless change-edge spirals we saw over the past few years.
  3. DivaOnIce

    DivaOnIce Member

    Well, that reminds me lots of something the German media made a lot of fuss about around the Olympics. They insisted that Mukhortova and Trankov would copy a lift of Savchenko and Szolkowy (M&T vs S&S). I always found that a bit over the top (it wasn't the exact same lift, just similar) especially after they kept on talking about it after Robin had said in an interview that he didn't think M&T were copying them. I for one always ask myself it S&S were really the first ones doing that lift, does someone know?

    Anyway... I have to agree with barbk, every move is new/original at first but that doesn't mean that special skaters have the rights to be the only ones doing that move - could you image pairs without the death spiral (firstly done by Oelschlagel/Neumann, and later in all its variations by the Protopopovs) or even all the different jumps.

    In the case of S&S and M&T I never thought of that new position being special probably would feel different about someone doing 'the goose' done by Virtue & Moir but maybe it's going to happen some day and maybe it will look even better, that's what I actually thought in the case of S&S and M&T...:p
  4. mia joy

    mia joy Well-Known Member

    It's not really a lift, but a lift entrance, the one that was the Siudeks' trademark - it's really hard for me to explain it, so just take a look, it appears for exmple in this video at about 1:22. It is truly amazing and I really have no idea how on earth they managed it. I don't know if they were the first to do it, but later there were (and still are) some couples who kind of perform an easier version of it where the girl first hits the ice and only then goes up. I don't know if you know what I mean, S/S have been doing it, check out this vid, it's at 3:27.

    I don't know, but somehow it now seems kind of funny for me when I see a top level pair doing this easier version, after seing the Siudeks perfom the more difficult one :p

    also, there's been another lift entrance, also perfomed by the Siudeks in the given video (they truly were the lift masters, weren't they?), at about 4:34 - now I have no idea who came up with this first, but there were many pairs performing it, even B/S at the same time as the Siudeks. Now that was a little annoying for me.
  5. mia joy

    mia joy Well-Known Member

    what's the goose? (and why is it called that stupid? :p)
  6. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

    oh boy, someone sooooo out of the loop...and cant even ask politely what that is...
  7. Mevrouw

    Mevrouw living every minute

    The "goose" is the name given to a move that Virtue and Moir did in their FD last season. She gets up to stand on his right thigh in a spiral position while he is in a squatted spread eagle. Then she leaps off to the right and he catches her. In the original, she did a 1.5 turn but that was judged to be 'illegal" so they changed it to a 1/2 rotation dismount.

    They wanted to call it the 'eagle' but thought it was too likely to sound American, so changed it to "goose" as that is closer to Canada goose - a nationally recognized (if not always admired or cherished) bird.
  8. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

    good for you for being so patient with the original poster.
  9. Sk8tn

    Sk8tn Active Member

    I always loved that performance of that program by the Siudeks. I so wanted them to skate it again just as well at Worlds and medal again with that program.
  10. ballettmaus

    ballettmaus Well-Known Member

    I think, what we don't think about is that all the other lifts were invented a long time ago as well. Like the lasso lift and star lift in pairs skating. Someone invented it like someone invented all the jumps. These days skaters put variations to the basic lifts, so that programs don't look the same and I've seen that lift from S&S before, I'm sure. It just was illegal for a long time because in pairs, lifts had to rotate. I think they abolished that rule with COP.
    What I find annoying or boring, or maybe both, is that in ice dance many use the same lifts. Somehow, I'm not so bothered in pairs probably because it's always been like that and the lifts are more like jumps in pairs skating. Also, dance has probably more of the dance aspect for me. Anyway, there was a time when a lot of skaters used those lifts when he's holding her leg between his knees and she bends backwards or whatever. It's not even a pretty lift, I don't think so at least. Same for that final lift D/W have in their FD, where he spins her in a split position. Personally, I find that a boring looking lift compared to others. So, the problem I had with everyone doing these lifts was that I didn't find the particularly interesting or spectacular.
    But as far as ice dance is concerned, each couple had lifts and they weren't copied. Delobel/Schoenfelder had this one lift which they used several times. They actually had that before COP and no one used it after COP was established and they were all looking for spectacular, difficult lifts.
    I think, as far as lifts are concerned, it depends on whether you view lifts as elements or lifts. So, the lifts used in ice dance which I mentioned were, at that time, probably considered as elements. Also, everyone knew they were going to be considered a level 4, so they used them. Same in pairs, lifts are elements. However, now, in ice dance, couples are back to doing lifts and have a grip on what's going to get them a high level. Sure, there are still similar lifts out there but less than in the first years of COP.

    As far as the goose is concerned, zilam98, I think that you were ruder than the original poster because "goose" isn't really a flattering name for a lift. Add to that that not everyone is a native English speaker and might have different associations with the word goose. Calling a lift goose would never cross my mind because in Germany, a goose wouldn't be considered as elegant so naming a lift "goose" would be stupid (silly).
    I didn't know about that either; that they called a lift a goose and in my opinion a lift should have a connection to what you're doing or what it resembles and if it's the lift I have in mind, it doesn't resemble a goose. But if they want to call it goose, let them.
  11. mia joy

    mia joy Well-Known Member

    Thanks a lot for the explanation!
    but I must say, I got sick of that lift after they were performing it in two of their FDs and numerous ex programs... (but her 1.5 turn was magnificent, too bad it was judged as illegal).

    wow, just because I said it sounded stupid, really? well, it did, until I knew why it was called so. duh.
    I probably didn't know it, cause I am not a fan of theirs, not reading/watching many interviews of them and living in Europe, so I guess I'm not required to know that Canada's national bird is a goose :rolleyes:
  12. Sedge

    Sedge Well-Known Member

    That move has always been credited ,in error, to M and D, who 'popularized' it.In this Youtube from 1986 at about 1:50, you'll see Denise Benning and Lyndon Johnston perform that position in their pairspin.As far as I know...they were the first.

  13. ros01

    ros01 Member

    I always wondered about this re Lambiel's spins. I was surprised none were being named after him, so to speak, but then I figured maybe someone else had used the positions before, just not recently. I'm sure some moves get stolen, and others are so distinctive that only the next generation takes them over. I remember when Michelle and then Sasha revived the Charlotte. I'm sure judges as well as enthusiastic fans know whose choreo is new, original, and/or creative.
  14. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    Oh get over yourself, only major V&M fans would remember that's what that lift is called. :revenge:
  15. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

    oh yeah? as if d/w fans dont know the name of that either. :hat1:
  16. zilam98

    zilam98 Well-Known Member

    it's not just any fan calling the lift goose--it's v/m themselves that chose to call it such. get it? and by the way, when did i ever insinuate it's about people misunderstanding english words just coz they're not native speakers? im not a native speaker either. i just pointed out to the fact that the poster was calling the name stupid--thereby judging it--before even getting the information.
  17. oleada

    oleada Well-Known Member

    I remember Domnina/Shabalin had a pretty "wow" lift the year the won the WC title and the next year, Crone/Poirier had exactly the same lift. It was a pretty unique lift, so it's the only example I remember of copying someone.

    That said, there's only so many lifts you can do, and imitation is the sincerest form of flattery, right? ;)
  18. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

  19. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    Well those are often the same people.

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    The only time that I get annoyed with copied lifts or with skaters reusing lifts, is when the lift is totally doesn't go with either the music or the program, especially in ice dance.

    An example is I&K not having their new lifts ready this year at NHK and having to use old lifts that totally broke the balletic mood of their piece. It was really noticeable.
  21. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

    Some pictures of the Canada goose

    In flight

    On land

    In the water

    They are big birds, about the size of a swan, and ubiquitious!

    My understanding is that V&M chose the name after people (presumably at the rink where they train) started calling it the eagle. They felt that sounded too American and wanted a Canadian name for it and so named it the goose.

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    Better that than the Beaver or the Loon ;)
  23. alilou

    alilou Crazy Stalker Lady

    :lol: no kidding!
  24. LilJen

    LilJen Reaching out with my hand sensitively

    Why 'the eagle'? I thought it was the goose because Scott looks very much like he's trying to lay an egg. . . or something. . .
  25. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    Well, there is really nothing new under the sun - especially in FS, given that there are limited number of moves. For many years jumps were added, singles then doubles then triples, then the quad. Will there be a quintuple jump one day?

    Still, old moves can go out of fashion and be reconstructed in new ways while new moves be revised and reinterpreted. And of course there are endless permutations and computations to how movements are combined, which keeps things fresh.

    One old move which I love is the cantilever - where the skater bends back from the needs so the body is parallel to the ice. Klimkin did it, and Sawyer is doing it in his FP.

    But there is always room for originality. I think the goose is original, and what about Bourne and Kraatz's hydoblading?

    Moscovitch and Moore-Towers have a lift where he squats on his knees before he lifts her - really cool IMO - has that been done before? (Most likely ;)
  26. TanithandBenFan

    TanithandBenFan Author of the Ice and Edge Series

    Steven Pottenger was the first person I saw do that lift at U.S. Nats a few years ago. I think it was when he was paired with Stephanie Kuban. He and Kendra Moyle also had it in their programs the next couple of years.
  27. TwizzlerS

    TwizzlerS Well-Known Member

  28. Skate Talker

    Skate Talker Replaced the display under my name

    Thanks Sedge - you beat me to it. Pretty ironic that that should have been cited near the beginning of this thread as an original move copied by other.

    I seem to recall hearing that upon seeing this spin Moskvina got all excited and was heard to say something along the lines of "Thanks for our new spin".

    Personally I find the Benning and Johnston version much more polite since he doesn't have a leg over her back in a position of dominance/superiority. I have actually always disliked the M&D version because I find it too disrespectful to the woman - trying to put the little lady in her place is what it says to me.

    So actually to speak to the question of this thread - it really depends.

    - If it is done several years after the original then usually no problem (unless the commentators don't get it right and call it original - that is beyond irritating even if not the fault of the competitors).

    - If it is done simultaneously with the team they are copying it is usually alright to me if they can bring some sort of new twist to their presentation of it to make it their own, though I guess sometimes if the "originators" were favourites of mine then I might be less likely to think it's okay :lol:.

    - If it is an honest acknowledgment of a "new way" of doing things and actually honours the previous skaters. For example, while I don't claim to know for sure that Ushi Kesler's hydro-blading moves popularized by Shae and Vik in ice dancing was actually "original" , the way many teams quickly began incorporating these type of moves to me was a tribute to an element they had added to ice dancing for the better and I always enjoyed seeing them when they were well done even though Shae and Vik were favourites of mine.

    - almost forgot the most important - If the move isn't as ugly as all get out, like the Besti squat, or what I call the stomach-cramp rotational lift in dance where the girl is "hung" over the guys arm. Some of the pairs lifts are ugly this way too - just because you can do them doesn't make them okay in my book.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010
  29. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member