1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  2. Hi all! No longer will threads be closed after 1000 (ish) messages. We may close if one gets so long to cause an issue and if you would like a thread closed to start a new one after a 1000 posts then just use the "Report Post" function. Enjoy!

ISU Communication No. 1767: Decisions of the ISU Council

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by allezfred, Oct 17, 2012.

  1. allezfred

    allezfred Master/Mistress of Sneer Staff Member


    - Tallinn, Estonia will host 2015 Junior Worlds

    - 2013/2014 Junior Grand Prixs are as follows:

    Most significantly, the final minimum TES for championships will be set two weeks prior to the entry deadline.
  2. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent


    So basically, ISU can change the goalposts anytime they want...
  3. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan A proud P/C fan

    We have 5 pairs event for JGP next year, this is really positive indeed.
  4. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    Maybe they finally realized the original TES standard was ridiculous and decided to see how skaters do, and then set the required score according to estimated number of contestants(say 20-24 skaters for Worlds and 25-30 skaters for 4cc/Euros?). If this is the case, I rather think it's a good thing.
  5. allezfred

    allezfred Master/Mistress of Sneer Staff Member

    Good if they lower it. Bad if they raise it. A skater who previously had thought they were qualified could find themselves on the wrong side of the score with only two weeks to somehow get an entry to an ISU level competition to get the new required score.

    And even if they lower it, the skaters who thought they weren't going to the championships will suddenly find themselves qualified and scrambling to sort out transport, etc.
  6. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    You're right. I didn't think that through. Two weeks are awfully short time for skaters to prepare for anything. It'll be really interesting to see how ISU is gonna play this thing.
  7. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    Which was pretty much exactly my train of thought.

    This is really dumb.
  8. sandra_persch

    sandra_persch Well-Known Member

    But isn't the entry deadline usually a month before the ISU Championships?

    6 weeks is still too short a notice period but hopefully the TES will only be lowered downwards.
  9. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

    I wonder if it's difficult to find places that are willing to host Jr Grand Prix events.
  10. kirkbiggestfan

    kirkbiggestfan Well-Known Member

    It really looks like the Central or Eastern European Skating Tour...full of charming ice rinks from the 60s.
  11. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    And air fares are going to be significantly higher at that point. :/
  12. Lanna

    Lanna Well-Known Member

    I wonder if there's a competition within the ISU to create the most obnoxious new rule.
    Finnice and (deleted member) like this.
  13. allezfred

    allezfred Master/Mistress of Sneer Staff Member

    Yes, the ISU have certainly outdone themselves with this one. No-one will be able to book transport or accommodation with full confidence until the final TES are confirmed.

    Judging by how generous the TES scoring seems to have been for the first few competitions this season, I have a funny feeling that it's more likely the bar will be raised rather than lowered.
  14. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    What they will do two weeks prior to the entry deadline is most likely set the TES so you end up with EXACTLY as many skaters eligible to enter the championship as there are places in the SP. Or maybe a few more so you have possible replacements.

    This will make the cost of booking flights much more expensive hurting both the national federations (who could otherwise book the flight straight after Nationals in December) and the skaters who have to pay their own way (as if they weren't spending enough already).

    It will save the cost for the championship organiser but massively increase the financial burden for everybody else.

    F*****g idiots. :rolleyes:
  15. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    The rule always provided for adjusting the number up or down to achieve the desired number of entrants. All this does is set the date for that to happen. The problem remains, though, that the ISU has set the various deadlines to leave considerable chaos in the process.

    The deadline for nominations to Worlds is 3 weeks before the event, (what's that - Feb 17?). Countries can nominate skaters who have yet to earn a qual score. Presumably, all the nominated skaters are still training for Worlds in case they get in. I assume somebody somewhere must be keeping spreadsheets of each skater's best TES scores, so skaters would already have a pretty good idea where they stand.

    The real stupidity comes in with the ISU deadline for posting a qual score - the start of the event. It looks like the last international where skaters can improve their score would be Challenge Cup (Feb 21-24), so all those numbers would be in by Feb 24, the same day the ISU is supposed to announce the cut-off score for qualifying.

    That gives the ISU part of one day to look at the scores of nominated skaters and figure out where to draw the line for a max field (or less if they are feeling masochistic). Personally, I will be surprised if the ISU opens themselves up to the barrage of complaints and criticism that would ensue if they set the bar to yield a smaller field. (Being the ISU, though, I guess we do have to leave open the possibility that they are setting up a public outcry to get rid of this system so they can install an even worse one.)

    I doubt they will go over the SP field size, counting on a few skaters to drop out. If they miscalculate, that would necessitate a whole extra flight to accommodate one or two skaters too many. IMO not likely to happen.

    One other random thought - since the qualifying marks are set separately for SP and FS (rather than one total score), that leaves room for a certain amount of shenanigans within the ISU when determining the final cut-offs. Say too few skaters achieved the original qual scores, so they are moving the lines down. How do they decide which one to move down and by how much? It seems likely to me that moving the SP down a little more and the FS a little less, might let in skaters A and B, while moving the SP a little less and the FS a little more would let in Skaters C & D. How do they do this fairly? Take 1 point off one then the other until they hit the desired number? It will be really interesting to see which countries' skaters are the ones benefiting/hurt by where they decide to move the lines.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  16. ChelleC

    ChelleC Well-Known Member

    It does seem that way, doesn't it? Seems each new rule is more boneheaded than the last.
    Last edited: Oct 18, 2012
  17. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

    So for worlds thats basically after 4CC, they will count down until the 30th entry and that's where they will set the cut for sure.
  18. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    It's not as simple as counting down to 30 (or whatever is the desired field size for that discipline) because there is not one list of scores. For each discipline there would be two lists -one list of the skaters ranked by best SP TES number and a second list where they are ranked by their best FS TES. To qualify a skater/team must achieve the prescribed qualifying TES score for both the SP and the FS. In theory, some skaters could meet one standard but not the other. That is where it can get complicated in deciding which qualifying standards to move down and how much. Those choices could affect who gets in and who doesn't.
  19. zebobes

    zebobes Active Member

    Not to mention you have to keep track of countries... so that two people who qualify for a country that only has one spot, then you can skip past that person. I'm sure a computer program could do it easily, but for a person that's trying to figure out on their own if they can make the world championships, it's gotta be pretty confusing.
  20. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Well-Known Member

    Interesting and confusing!
  21. oubik

    oubik Well-Known Member

    Well, Ziggy, even if I do not like this high TES thing at all, I have to say that 14 days before the deadline is OKish from my experience (beacuse it is 6 weeks to the start of the Championships and that is the time everybody´s loking for flights etc.). Once Europeans deadline is December 31st, 14 days period means December 17th and this is OK.
    Junior Worlds deadline is February 4th which leads to TES deadline on January 21st, even before the start of EC and way ahead of many junior Nationals.
    World deadline is at February 17th, so TES deadline would be February 3rd, just before the start of 4CC and as most of the Federations are waiting for EC/4CC results there is still plenty of time to do the final entries and organize the travel. You can also add some of the skaters who are on the bubble as a provisional entry and they have another chance in the international events before the start of the Champs (like Torun, Bratislava, Lyon before EC/4CC; or Hague, Torino, Ljubljana, Bavarian etc. before JW and WC).

    Regarding this: "It will save the cost for the championship organiser but massively increase the financial burden for everybody else."
    I don´t think so, the organizers are losing all the incomes from the QRs which were (as I have heard from theirs experiences this and last year) the two/three days of the Championships which heavily saved the overall competition balance.

    I think we couldn´t blame ISU there but only those federations bringing the stupid end of the Prelim Rs on the ISU Congress table (like Israelis, Bulgarians and co.) Now, they should maybe learned that you still need to have Plan B which they did not.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  22. care bear

    care bear Active Member

    According to "Pirouette" Oct 2012 ISU with reference to Mr. P. Krick is highly probable not going to make TES lower.
  23. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    Sorry - I got this wrong in my original post. The date for setting the final minimums is two weeks before the entry deadline (not 2 weeks before the event). This means the ISU will set the final numbers for Worlds on Feb 4. There are other senor events scheduled after that date and before Worlds where skaters can improve their scores, so the ISU will be setting the standards without knowing how many skaters will ultimately qualify.

    IMO, this is a whole new level of ISU dumb. These guys seem never to think things thru.

    I wonder if this means they will set the qualifying numbers a little higher than folks would like, to make sure the late qualifiers don't push the field sizes over their target numbers of skaters.
  24. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Thanks for all the insights as usual, Oubik. :)