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IJS Senior ladies with triple / triple combinations

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by essence_of_soy, Nov 1, 2011.

  1. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    With all of the talk surrounding Tuktamisheva, a 14 year old skater straight out of juniors winning Skate Canada, having the advantage of triple - triple combinations without a post-pubescent body, I'm wondering how many senior ladies currently competing under IJS have triple - triple combinations?

    Specifically, ladies in their late teens and twenties with grown - up bodies.

    Miki Ando, YuNa Kim, Carolina Kostner, Cheltzie Lee, Maé Bérénice Méité, Kiira Korpi, and Joannie Rochette come to mind.

    (NB: It's quite interesting that a few of the skaters from Skate Canada last week were wunderkinds themselves as first year seniors, namely Cynthia Phaneuf, Mirai Nagasu and Rachel Flatt.)
    Last edited: Nov 1, 2011
  2. johndockley92

    johndockley92 New Member

    Did you just name a skater Wikipedia?
  3. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    Haha, good pick up. I had to run a google search to spell Maé Bérénice Méité.
  4. alchemy void

    alchemy void blowing kisses with bitchface

    OES heart the 3toe+3toe......

    Alena Leonova
    Ksenia Makarova
    Viktoria Helgesson?
    Sarah Hecken
    Sofia Biryukova
    Elena Glebova

    I'm sure there are others.....
  5. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    You still name Joannie Rochette ??? Don't get me wrong, I love her, but is she still skating in competition ?

    Anyway, other 3/3, IIRC : Alissa Czisny (3Lz/3T), Haruka Imai (IIRC, 3Loop/3Toe), Kanako Murakami (3T/3T)
  6. gingercrush

    gingercrush Well-Known Member

    What triple/triple does Rochette do?
  7. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    I was thinking the same thing. She never did land the 3F/3T or 3Lz/3T in competition (as far as I recall) but I think she did do 3T/Half-loop/3S.
  8. MikiAndoFan#1

    MikiAndoFan#1 Well-Known Member

    gkelly and (deleted member) like this.
  9. pinky166

    pinky166 #teamtrainwreck #teamdiva

    Agnes Zawadzki - 3t-3t
    Kanako Murakami - 3f-3t, 3t-3t
    Christina Gao - 3f-3t, 3t-3t
    Haruka Imai - 3lo-3t
    Carolina Kostner - 3f-3t, 3t-3t
    Cheltzie Lee - 3t-3t

    Then a bunch of Euro ladies have 3t-3t: Hecken, Meite, Silete, Marocco, Glebova, Gedevanishvilli, Korpi, Makarova, Leonova and I'm probably forgetting some.

    The following skaters competed on the JGP this season but are age-eligible for senior IJS competitions and appear to be past their growth spurts:

    Polina Shelepen - 3lz-3t, 3s-3t
    Polina Agafonova - 3lz-3t, 3s-3t
    Polina Korobeynikova - 3f-3t
    Juulia Turkkila - 3t-3t
    Beata Papp - 3t-3t
  10. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Laura Lepistö has a triple toe-triple toe. If we're going to count Cheltzie Lee (apparently not retired taking the season off) as "currently competing," we should also include her, since she might be back in competition later this season.
  11. crs

    crs Well-Known Member

    Alissa Czisny will never be the consistent skater most people want her to be (especially scott hamilton and co.). She will never be a michelle kwan. And let's not talk about her winning over a superior carolina costner at skate america,just laughable. And some people think this score systems is better than the old one,sure lol1
  12. sequinsgalore

    sequinsgalore Member

    I try only take into account previous season and this ongoing.

    - Alena Leonova
    - Ksena Makarova
    - Sofia Biryukova
    - Julia Lipsnitskaia
    - Anna Shershak
    - Kristina Zaseeva
    - Maria Stavitskaia
    - Kiira Korpi
    - Laura Lepistö (injured)
    - Beata Papp
    - Alisa Mikonsaari (not ratified yet?)
    - Linnea Mellgren (not ratified yet?)
    - Elene Gedevanishvili (did not attempt at SA. According to Orser she will do 3T+3T later this season)
    - Alissa Czisny (no attempts yet)
    - Carolina Kostner
    - Mae Berenice Meite
    - Shoko Ishikawa
    - Kanako Murakami
    - Miu Sato (not ratified yet?)
    - Yuki Nishino (not ratified yet?)
    - Yukiko Fujisawa (not ratified yet?)
    - Christina Gao
    - Agnes Zawadzki
    - Akiko Suzuki (popped attempt at SC)
    - Sarah Hecken
    - Isabel Drescher
    - Elena Glebova
    - Yasmin Siraj (not ratified yet?)

    - Polina Agafonova
    - Polina Shelepen
    - Rosa Shoji

    - Haruka Imai (did not attempt at SA)

    - Christina Gao
    - Zijun Li (no attempts yet)
    - Kanako Murakami (landed at regionals)
    - Risa Shoji (not ratified yet, went back to 3S+3T)
    - Satoko Miyahara
    - Ashley Wagner (twofooted, but landed at CoR 2010)
    - Gracie Gold

    - Elizaveta Tuktamisheva
    - Elene Gedevanishvili (has in practice according to Orser. Will perhaps attempt later)
    - Alissa Czisny (not ratified yet)
    - Polina Shelepen
    - Adelina Sotnikova
    - Satoko Miyahara (not ratified yet)
    - Gracie Gold
    - Yuna Kim (not competing this season)

    - Hae Jin Kim
    - Courtney Hicks (now injured)

    - Adelina Sotnikova
    - Miki Ando (but not ratified previous season)
  13. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Many 3T/3T back in 2005. And 3F/3T, once, in a SP (2008 4CC SP).
  14. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    If Gracie Gold is being mentioned (as a Junior level skater both nationally and internationally, but Senior age-eligible) then Katarina Kulgeyko deserves a mention also, since she landed a nice 3Lz+3T in the SP at Pacific Coast Sectionals last year. I don't know of any others that she's landed.


    I always thought it would be fun to try to come up with a list of everyone female skater who has ever landed a 3-3 in competition, and which 3-3(s) and which competition(s), plus a similar list for men and quads, just to see how many really have landed each. We could also include a sub-list for those who have ever attempted 3-3s, but not landed them cleanly (and we can endlessly debate whether certain attempts should be counted as clean based on video ;)). Maybe with YouTube we could even include some links to practice attempts just for fun. Is anyone else dorky enoguh to be interested in this. :shuffle:
  15. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    I'm sure there will be many debates about Slutskaya, as well as Lipinski and Hughes. To be expected with loop combinations.

    Dorky enough to read it but not to do much of the work.
  16. os168

    os168 Active Member

    Wow that is alot of 3:3s! But I thought the whole point of the thread is if only they can bring it when it count? Like Liza at Skate Canada, except with 'mature' body :rolleyes:

    As far as I know, the ONLY ISU ratified 3Lz+3T combination for seniors last season was from Yuna Kim at Worlds, am I wrong?

    It is all very well discuss everything in theory but it is a bit pointless because it is a competition after all.

    This season should interesting, skaters are bringing their quads and 3:3. Whether they can land it is another matter. I am really looking forward to see the brave new landscape shift at worlds, hopefully it won't be a conservative win like last year.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  17. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    That might have been the only ratified 3Lz+3T combination last season -- I'd have to spend a lot more time checking, but I suspect even that is not true and some juniors did it successfully. . . . Just checking, Tuktamysheva did it in the short program at Jr. Worlds, and Sotnikova did 3Lz+3Lo in the long program.

    Just a quick glance at the 2011 Worlds protocols shows that Kiira Korpi got credit for a clean 3T+3T in the long program and in the short program that same combination was successfully landed by Makarova, Leonova, Kostner, Meite, Hecken, and Lee.

    I'm sure there were others at other competitions.
  18. os168

    os168 Active Member

    Ahh thanks GKelly, yeah of course I mean 3Lz+3T. I mean 3:3s applies to seniors only and for the purpose of this thread!

    This might be useful: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOSMv-JPT-U

    I don't think one is available for the LP.

    According to the youtube comment, Cheltzie did a 3T+3T which was the 2nd highest combination jump at worlds. Such pity she is retired, I really like her short program and found it so refreshing.

    It would be cool to compile a list of 3:3 ratified jumps along with scores and competition for comparison on the quality too.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  19. burntBREAD

    burntBREAD Active Member

    Cheltzie Lee is not retired, she's taking a year off (it's posted in "Great Skate Debate")
  20. os168

    os168 Active Member

    Thanks burntBREAD, good to know she is not retired. May be Robin Cousins can do another great program for her in 2013.

    You know something I have always wondered, why didn't they do computerization of the height, distance, speed and trajectory of each jump and elements? They have the technology already I am sure. Fine, it doesn't have to be used on the actual judgement, but just to inform TV audiences. It would make fascinating insight from a scientific point of view. We have this in other sport, why not figure skating?

    To rely purely on sight vision really doesn't really do the sport or the skaters justice. Like for example, everyone has been going on about Liza's 3:3 is suppose to be big for her age, but just how big i want to know compare to others at Junior level. And how big in relating to her height, weight, how she last performed etc.

    We talk about improving the sports and bring it credibility, this would be a good step forward. Anyone who's obsessed with sport stats would become interested, and frankly it would make fascinating insight into whether judges got it right from competition to competition (maybe that is why they didn't want to use it?).
  21. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    That will probably come eventually. First the technology would have to be available (probably true now but not 20-30 years ago) and easy to use in real time and inexpensive enough to be used at all competitions above a certain level, not just for ISU championships/Grand Prix (this could take a while).
  22. giselle23

    giselle23 Well-Known Member

    I think the question should be, which current ladies have a consistent 3-3. Very few.
    What made Yu Na so amazing, IMO, is that she could pull off that 3-3 every time, and do it so beautifully. There are only a handful of past skaters who could do it consistently--Tara Lipinski (though maybe she would have lost it, if she had continued), Midori Ito. Who else?
  23. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Carolina Kostner had it at almost every competition (SP or LP or both) since 2003.
    Surya Bonaly too, if we include 3Toe/half-Loop/3Sal.
  24. Polymer Bob

    Polymer Bob New Member

    I am pretty sure Caroline Zhang landed a 3 - 3 at last season's NHK Trophy.
  25. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

    No, she didn't. When was the last time she landed a clean 3-3 in competition? Was it 3F+3T in her FS at 2009 World Team Trophy?

    ETA: I just checked online, and Zhang was credited with landing 3F+3T< in her 2009 Skate Canada SP.

    I did see her land some very nice 3Lo+3Lo combos in practices at Skate America last month, so maybe we'll see her try it in competition at some point?
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2011
  26. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

  27. mag

    mag Well-Known Member

    I think the technology is available and fairly easy to implement. If you watch football or tennis they use computers all the time to show plays. In tennis they often show you a computer drawing of where all the serves in a game or set landed. In the time it takes for the marks to come up in skating, all the jumps and spins could be shown on the big screen. Each could be labelled with the rotation drawn in outline on the computer. A measurement could then be given to show if there was any pre or under rotation. The problem isn't the technology, the problem is that then everyone would see the calls and they would have to be fair and consistent for all skaters .... that might be difficult for TPTB to take.
  28. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    You need to watch Ice Princess. :p
  29. Rochelle

    Rochelle Active Member

    I love it. I really do like this idea. It'd be interesting to see done in practice and implemented for a skating event just even as a test. For those not in person, it can be very difficult to notice on TV the difference in the height of jumps (or the speed/distance covered as well on jumps).

    I can see it aiding the more casual-TV-watching-fan's understanding of how when Serious Stylish Sam and Frantic Flailing Fred landed the exact same 6 triples in their programs... Frantic Flailing Fred consistently still scored more +2s and even a few +3s because his jumps are on average X-feet higher, cover X-more feet in distance across the ice, and executed at XX-MPH/KPM faster.

    But... :rofl:... it'd also be interesting to see such an implementation for the sake of PCS -- particularly transitions. I'm already dreaming up a photoshop sketch in my head to exemplify how the program is laid out on the ice... where Frantic Flailing Fred simply skates back/forth non-stop from one end to the other to display jump spectacular jumps with little actual skating (and just arm flailing and posing)... while other skaters like Serious Stylish Sam have notably intricate and varied transitions and excellent use of the full ice surface.

    In my head, the TV and computer screen is even starting to appear like a (gulp) NASCAR race or something...
    **Up at the top is the scrolling bar of GOEs flashed up for each elements seconds after it passes. Then the current results are scrolled along while the skater is in the Kiss & Cry
    The right column of the screen includes:
    *one alternative camera view showing the live reactions of the coach (since a camera seems to be on the coaches at all times, anyway, to get those reaction shots replayed in the K&C)
    *a live-time-updated list of all elements actually executed (as called by the tech in real time)
    *the above proposed graphics that flashes the technical stats of an element (height / distance / speed / rotation for jump), etc. upon execution.

    If it can support the results and real-time-activity of the IJS software, it really may not be all that costly to develop. Hmm. Hmmmmm... The significant cost is probably for the "program that graphic that determines and displays the technical stats of an element (height / distance / speed / rotation for jump".

    I do wonder A) what kind of fan base increase we have to develop to get it... when it seems track/field and other lower-fan-base sports have it... B) if that would help gain fans if used at a crucial time like the 2014 Olympics.

    Ok. Tangent done.

    Back to the 3-3s topic...
  30. Mafke

    Mafke Well-Known Member

    I think the ISU's jihad against underrotation effectively removed much of the motivation for trying 3-3's. The plain fact is that hardly any ladies have 3-3's that will consistently meet the standards of ISJ.

    Ruthlessly punish very slight underrotation that's only visible in slo-mo = fewer skaters trying risky combinations.

    The system gets what it selects for (fewer 'female' triples) and not what it hopes to select for (more 'fully' rotated jumps).