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Have you lost some respect for ladies figure skating as a sport?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Jarrett, Oct 24, 2012.

Have you lost some respect for ladies figure skating as a sport?

  1. Yes.

    20 vote(s)
  2. Yes, but I think they will pick it up in the Olympic Season.

    10 vote(s)
  3. No.

    77 vote(s)
  4. It was never a sport in the first place.

    0 vote(s)
  1. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Good point, and it's a catch-22 because the higher jumping ability that is expected, the younger the women have to be, but the men can still be older because they aren't affected by puberty as badly. Naturally the ladies are not going to skate like mature ladies because, they're not.
  2. rayhaneh

    rayhaneh Well-Known Member

    Sorry, I wasn't being very clear: I didn't mean to imply that the COP encouraged one style of skating over another (although clearly the judges somewhat do - see the men's competition at Worlds....:wall:). What I meant is that the COP doesn't encourages artistic research, so whether you skate pretty or with a richer program is unlikely to make a major difference so why bother?

    I guess in a sense, I wish the COP would favor risky programs over more tame ones ;)
  3. Mafke

    Mafke Well-Known Member

    I think the problem isn't the ladies but the judging system changing too fast and discouraging risks (like overpenalizing underrotation a few years ago and very strict edge calls).

    To fix it, why not rethink ladies skating from the basics.

    My proposals:

    Increase or junk the limit on number of jumping passes. All the current limit does is mean each jumping pass has to get lots of points and a skater can comfortably skip a problem jump or two. Give the skaters more options on different ways of getting more points with an emphasis on technique.

    Require that the LP has to have all six jumps in double or triple form.

    Rework the zayak rule so that a jump can be done more than twice if it's always in combination or once alone and once in combination.

    Audiences (including knowledgeable ones) need to get over the silly idea that young female skaters can do as many jumps and combinations (with the right edges and no underrotation) as they were led to believe they could when judging standards didn't come down too heavily on either of those.
  4. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Not just the CoP discouraged risks. CoP is really demanding in term of spins, steps, choreo. So much more than before.
    Skaters have to train as much time for spins, jumps and steps. But they can't train so much more than before. So, skaters have less time to practice jumps.
    At least, that's how I see it.
    It's not bad, at all. But we see that ladies can't do everything perfectly. It seems easier for male.
  5. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    However, if you try to "fix" the lack of risk, you can introduce other problems, and then you -- or someone else, if all you care about is risk -- will come up with a fix to those. So it's best to anticipate what some of those other problems might be. For example,

    I agree that skaters should have different ways of getting more points with an emphasis on technique. But those different ways don't necessarily have to be more jumps -- or more rotations to jumps. If skaters have the option to do fewer jump passes and replace those passes with additional spins or sequences, then there would be more incentives to push the limits in non-jump elements, which has already been true under IJS especially for difficulty but maybe should be for variety and quality as well.

    Allowing skaters to do fewer jump passes without wasting points would also be an incentive to work on triple-triple combinations, so a skater can fit all the triples she can do (plus a double axel) into 5 or 6 passes and then free up an element slot for a special double jump or another kind of non-jump element.

    There could also be incentives to include double jumps with top quality or combined in unusual ways with jumps or other elements and transitions.

    On the other hand, if you simply allow unlimited jump elements, some skaters who are inconsistent with the hardest jumps will just throw in more attempts at the same jumps until they get the rotations in. And the best jumpers could rack up huge jump points by executing 7 triples and 7 or more double jumps. Both at the expense of non-jump elements -- either they'll leave out an allowed spin or sequence to gain time for another jump that could be worth more, or they'll skimp on the difficulty and quality of those elements so they'll take less time and allow more time for jumps.

    If you require this, then you're imposing more restrictions on the program content. This was never required in the past, either in the 1970s and before when most or all jumps were doubles, or the 1980s when the top ladies usually had 2 or 3 different triples, or in the 1990s/early 2000s when top ladies usually attempted 5 different kinds (and less than a handful over more than a decade had 6).

    What happens to an otherwise strong contender who 1) is recovering from injury and just plain can't safely execute one or two particular takeoffs, 2) struggles with one particular takeoff such that even her doubles are shaky or inconsistent, 3) saves her supposedly easiest takeoff for the end of the program and then pops it that day?

    How much does she lose for not meeting the "requirement"?

    Under the current rules, an axel jump of some kind is required in the free program. And any recognizable attempt meets the requirement, even a waxel/pop to waltz jump. So if a skater does her 6 triples (or 7 if she has a 3/3 combo), saves the double axel for the end, and pops it, she might get zero points for the less-than-single, maybe a fall deduction as well, but she gets full value for all the jumps she did execute. I don't think we should get any more punitive than that for a skater who plans only one (triple) salchow or only one (double) loop and then happens to pop it.

    Currently, if a skater plans a triple+2A sequence earlier in the program as her only axel in the program and then falls on the triple, then she'll lose credit not only for the axel that she doesn't execute (or does but in a way that's called as "triple + sequence") but also for the last jump element in the program because the program will still be waiting for the required axel jump.

    If you change the program such that continues looking for all six takeoffs as double or triple, then it would be more common for the last element or two to get no credit if any takeoff was omitted or singled earlier in the program.

    But if it's the last jump that's popped, then the only penalty is losing the value of that jump. And if a jump is rotated enough to be called as a double, but failed (fall, two-foot landing/step out, etc.), then the skater most of the value for that jump, and fall deduction, but do you want her also to be penalize for not successfully completing at least a double from that takeoff?

    If you want to enforce your requirement, would apply a deduction to any program that doesn't contain at least a double from all six takeoffs, in addition to the loss of points that come from failures?

    If so, better to handle it more like the current axel requirement -- any attempt at that takeoff fills the requirement even if the skater fails to rotate at least twice in the air.

    Personally, my simplest solution would be to allow ladies an extra 15 or 30 seconds and one more element slot, which could be an 8th jump pass OR a 4th spin OR a third sequence (with perhaps different kinds of sequences introduced as elements).

    And maybe build in a modest bonus for including all the takeoffs as doubles or better, in addition to all the points earned for the jumps themselves. Which is different from a penalty, which would take away points that the jumps actually executed already earned.

    In which case Zayak's 5 triple toes in the same program could be legal because most of them were in combination. But it's still an unbalanced reliance on the same skill too many times.

    Agreed. It would help if commentary would point out other areas of adding difficulty besides variety of jump takeoffs, and the difficulty of executing both lutz and flip with clearly distinct technique.
  6. wonderlen

    wonderlen New Member

    Then it must hit even lower when Kostner win a world title with easier triple-triple, a doubled loop in SP and only 5 triples. Two jumps mistake in total and doesn't even have 3 Lutz!!! LOL While the junior win with 7 triples program including 3LZ+3T....
  7. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    It's not exactly the same level of basic skating...Give me any Kostner's program (even without jumps) over a junior 7 triples program !
  8. sk8ingcoach

    sk8ingcoach Active Member

    I think the overall skating skills have improved a lot since the last Olympics. But although many ladies can't do a triple lutz, there are now numerous ladies that can do clean 3-3 combinations when there never used to be.