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Gracie Gold or Mao Asada? Who do you think.....?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by AngieNikodinovLove, Feb 8, 2017.

Gracie Gold or Mao Asada? Who do you think.....?

  1. Gracie Gold

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  2. Mao Asada

    50.8%
  1. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Hype is always annoying no matter if it's Tara or NNN. Same hype, different career results.

    I wouldn't say fans or USFS put anymore pressure on GG then they did Sasha or Kimmie and neither of their careers had didley to do with Frank's new official residence under the perverbial bus. Even tragedy hasn't spared Lawrence Owen from the churning hype machine of expectation based on perceived potential.

    It's a tale as old as time, so do they all get the same it's always everyone else's fault but their's pass?
     
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  2. annie_mg

    annie_mg Active Member

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    Still, she's not a strong competitor. I can think of others that had similar pressure but didn't completely collapse during a programme like Gracie's been doing. Sasha Cohen is one of them. She was dubbed " the one" at some point but failed to deliver clean programmes. She had one or two mistakes though. Not 5.
     
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  3. AngieNikodinovLove

    AngieNikodinovLove Well-Known Member

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    A lot of people keep mentioning Sasha.

    Sasha has world medals and an Oly medal. Gracie doesnt have that but hopefully soon!

    Gracie has meltdowns.

    I dont recall Sasha having meltdowns .. she would make a mistake (sometimes 2) that would cost her a gold or a silver medal or something.

    Sasha wouldnt go out there and just perform a bunch of doubles.

    I would compare Gracie more to Alissa on this topic. Alissa would win Golds on the GP circuit like Gracie does. But when it comes to a Nats or a Worlds you would have no idea what you would get.. a good performance of one with costly mistakes.
     
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  4. Meoima

    Meoima Well-Known Member

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    Alissa was much more elegant....
     
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  5. AngieNikodinovLove

    AngieNikodinovLove Well-Known Member

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    FOR SURE! But I said on "this topic."
     
  6. Meoima

    Meoima Well-Known Member

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    Seriously Alissa was my pain. I don't remember any US lady being more elegant than her... and yet...
     
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  7. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    The topic was pressure to be the next big thing. I don't remember Alissa really having that kind of hype and push going all the way back to her junior days or at least sr. nat debut. I remember her being more of a late bloomer. I saw her at a jr comp (worlds maybe?) where she didn't medal or even come close back in like 03 or 04 and then she didn't win nats until like 09.

    Sasha having the same pressure to excel as Gracie yet doing much better is the whole point. We can't just dismiss Gracie's problems as "oh she was too hyped".
     
  8. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    Maybe she was not too hyped but the international field has certainly been deeper for Gracie than Sasha. Gracie has skated against Mao, Yu Na, Medvedeva, Tuktamysheva, Pogo, Satoka, Lipnitskaya, Sotnikova, Wagner, Radionova, Kostner ...
     
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  9. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    You are definitely right on the field, but Sasha still was a much better competitor on the big stage if you just look at performance. She almost always gave clean short, 2003 worlds was the lone exception. She usually had a pretty good long with 1 or 2 key mistakes which resulted in her coming 2nd to 4th at worlds/Oympics, 2nd/3rd at Nationals rather than the gold medal that was always hoped/desired for her. Hence the harsh criticsm she got. However while not the best competitor, she was a real fighter, she could make a big mistake or even 2 to start her program like Turin, and come back fighting and skate the rest of the program really well. Gracie hasnt that ability at all, and starts to fall apart when she has a mistake.

    Gracie also has much stronger jump and basic skating technique than Sasha so consistency should be much easier. Even the hard triple-triples that Cohen, Hughes, and Kwan either underrotated (Hughes), rarely bothered with at all (Kwan), or struggled with making (Cohen) arent that difficult for her as she proves in practices, yet her consistency is much worse than Sasha's whose relative inconsistency is atleast partly not even having great jump or basic skating technique to begin with.
     
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  10. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    ^this.

    If we are going to sign on to this scenario where satoka is stronger than fumie, older caro is stronger than younger caro, and a seemingly endless stream of Russian ladies who keep replacing each other are stronger than irina who has more medals than all of them combined not to mention all but had her name per-engraved on the Torino ogm, than we're also going to have to admit that Gracie is much stronger than Sasha, so...

    And I almost spit my water out when I read Wagner. Ashley is harder to beat than Kwan? Seriously?
     
    Last edited: Feb 15, 2017
  11. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    Maybe you should ask who is/was easier to beat, Cohen or Gold?
     
  12. AngieNikodinovLove

    AngieNikodinovLove Well-Known Member

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    WOW.... 2 weeks after i created this thread the poll results are 50% - 50%

    Wasnt expecting such good debate!!!!! :cheer2::cheer2::cheer2:

    Mao snuck up on this poll as she was originally trailing..

    Well..Next season will be VERY Exciting!!!!
     
  13. douglasottawa

    douglasottawa Banned Member

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    Medvedeva is easily going to surpass Slutskaya's career, she will probably have done it by next season considering the odds are good she will be a 3 time WC and OGM (both things Irina didnt manage) by then. And a skater with as many glaring weaknesses as Irina has- poorly centred spins, inconsistent triple-triples that were often < and landed with no flow even when stood up, awful spirals, and many artistic shortcomings would be struggling to make it out of Russia consistently today. Go watch some of the performances Irina won Russian titles with and watch Russian Nationals of the last 2 years and try and picture where that would fit in. If you want compare Medvedeva to Irina as skaters if Irina were as consistent with the triple-triples as Medvedeva is she would be the 97 world, 98 world, 98 Olympic, 2000 world, 2001 world, 2002 Olympic, and 2006 Olympic Champion in addition to the 2 world titles she actually won in 2002 and 2005, so I guess that gives you your answer right there. With just one of the numerous things Medvedeva has over Slutskaya, the same consistency on her triple-triples, she is a 3 time Olympic and 6 or 7 world champ guaranteed.

    A skater like Butyrskaya who won a world title at 26 in the Cohen era would have literally been retired by Russia at 22 or so with her relatively marginal talent, something they tried to do then but didnt have enough talent or depth in their country to do so since they would have had to rely on say Rachkova, Voltchkova, Soldatova, or post prime Markova to regularly push her off teams. So with her determination alone Butyrskaya motored on awhile then, but today she would be buried. Look at how someone like Tuktmysheva who easily has more talent than Butyrskaya (just compare their short programs at their winning worlds, lol www.youtube.com/watch?v=tYH9Ysq_vlk www.youtube.com/watch?v=LkJwO3eKUNQ) struggles to just get out of Russia regularly in her career.

    The Russian strength in ladies back then was just starting a bit, and maybe about equal to its first appearance in mid to late 80s when you had Kondrashova, Ivanova, Vodorerova, Lebedeva all at once. It was nothing like today, back then they had one I guess great but still really flawed skater (Slutskaya) and one very good skater behind her (Butyrskaya), and a few "pretty good" skaters after that usually fighting for the last spot on teams who were probably never going to get a world medal or might sneak in a surprise one somewhere (Sokolova in 2003, Soldatova 99) and that was it. The reason you see so many changes there is the depth is insane, it probably surpasses the U.S depth of 92-2003 and it matches the Russian pair and dance depth at their absolute peak years, and in those days when Russia totally dominated and sometimes swept world podiums in dance and pairs you often saw World or Olympic winners miss their team too.

    Add to that Cohen never faced the best of Butyrsaya, she began facing her in the 2001-2002 season when Maria was way below her 99-early 2001 peak, or even her 96-98 form. She faced one year of prime Slutskaya in 2002, then one other event at 2005 worlds, and otherwise an old struggling and usually not even healthy Slutskaya. She needed Kwan's technical skills to decline even further, and her hip problems to increase further, to finally start beating her sometimes in 2004 and 2005. The field is not only weaker than today, but weaker than 96-2002. Someone like Arakawa who did almost nothing her whole career came in to become world and Olympic champ in her mid 20s then retire, something that would never happen in most times just on lack of reputation alone, but there was enough of a void then with old Kwan, old and usually ill Slutskaya, Hughes early retirement, Cohen being afraid to win a big title even when they were practically handed to her, lack of any young talent, and people like Suguri and Sokolova just not being that good, for her to make such a late rush.

    As for Fumie a skater like her medalling 3 times at worlds just shows the posters point about Gold facing a way tougher competitive field than Cohen. We saw how quickly Fumie was dropped from relevance after 2006, and it is not like she aged that fast. She medaled at worlds 3 years from 2002-2006, which is kind of amazing for a skater like her, all due respect to Fumie. Kostner is coming back today much older is already way more competitive than mid to late 20s Suguri ever could be after 2006 (the end of Cohen era). As for if young Kostner or old Kostner is better look at the tape of the shit routine that Kostner somehow won a world medal with in 2005, or her LP at the 2004 worlds that somehow got her a top 5 in the world, to her beautiful skates in the Sochi LP and recent Europeans LP and decide for yourself.

    Kwan is tougher than Wagner for sure, but Gold atleast beats Wagner often while Cohen never beats Kwan, and Wagner is like the 6th or less toughest person Gold has to beat on the world scene while Kwan was the toughest Cohen had to beat, so not sure your point there. Medvedeva, the true hardest person Gold has to beat, is definitely way harder to beat now than an old post peak Kwan who won only 1 major title and never attempted a program with more than 6 triples from 2002-2006. Cohen probably beats Kwan in every single outing from 2003 onwards if she goes clean, while she doesnt have anywhere near the sheer technical ability to even have a chance to beat Medvedeva if prime Cohen is put head to head with Evgenia, so easy which she would have preferred to face. Now moving way down the totem poll to Wagner, I think you would agree Wagner is easily harder to beat than say Elena Sokolova (a skater who exactly like Wagner was also mostly about 6th best in the world and not even consistently best in her country those years but won a world silver one year of the 2002-2006 Cohen era), so that is a much more apt apple to apples comparision and that too definitely favors Gold.

    All the above aside I am going to bold what I am about to say since it is the most important of all in the comparision you are trying to make Gold has more pressure than Cohen since she is the one the USFSA and all the media and everyone in the sport in the U.S puts the pressure on to win and succeed most. Despite Cohen complaining about Kwan hanging around so long, Kwan shielded Cohen to a large extent since Kwan was always the first point of interest and the one with the most pressure, not Cohen. Until her retirement in mid 2003 Hughes even had greater expectations than Cohen too. So Cohen had the same kind of pressure as Gold only 1 year at most- 2006. That was her only year ever as U.S #1. And given how poorly Cohen handles pressure she is probably lucky Kwan continued so long to make this so. She probably just fares much worse without this pressure, just take a look at the 2006 worlds, 2004 grand prix final, and to a lesser extent 2006 Olympics if you want an indication how Cohen does without the person with the real most pressure from U.S- Kwan, shielding her. In terms of USFSA interest and pressure, media interest and expectation, and pressure and expectation from every corner of U.S skating including fans, Gold has been U.S #1 for all practical purposes since her 2011 Nationals LP, regardless who is really higher ranked at a given point between her or Wagner. So I definitely think Gold has more pressure than Cohen, she doesnt have an all time legend (Kwan) and one of the most consistent skaters/medal winners in the world and an Oympic Champ (Hughes) shielding her as the U.S #2/#3.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
  14. npavel

    npavel Well-Known Member

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    I think that if Gracie had choosen someone other than Carroll she would have done better. As soon someone doesn't bring it, he doesn't engage himself any more, and ddoesn't support the skater. She should have taken Nicks or Arturian who supports the skater and gives them confidence
     
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  15. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    When do you think was a good example of Nicks and Raf giving confidence?

    I guess I think coaches give skaters confidence by training them so they are prepared and know they can execute their content.
     
  16. douglasottawa

    douglasottawa Banned Member

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    I think Raf gave Abt confidence which built through his career. We saw how Abt, a talented skater but with all kinds of health issues and mentally extremely fragile, slowly climbed to ranks until his ultimate season in 2002 when he was robbed of a European Gold and worlds silver/bronze by bad judging and politics. Then he left Raf and his career was soon over.

    He gave Kwan confidence and helped her surge and remain competitive in late career, even with a serious hip problem and athletically past her peak (2004-2005).

    He gave Wagner alot of confidence and helped her regain U.S Champion status and win a world medal when people began writing her off again in 2010.

    Speaking of Wagner, Nicks was the first to give her this level of confidence she had never had before.
     
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  17. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    Well, I can say something similar about Fratianne, who he coached for her entire career (figures and freeskating) starting at elementary school age and currently shares a rink with as a fellow coach, although she never left Frank except when she went pro.

    Frank also fired Tiffany Chin because her mom was a little too much for him to handle, then took Tiffany back in the final year of her senior career after he resolved things with her mother; Tiffany also coaches at the same rink as Frank.


    http://www.toyotasportscenter.com/page/show/32459-instructor-bios

    then go to:

    http://assets.ngin.com/attachments/document/0093/4780/SSPRO_BIOS_2.27.16.pdf

    Although Raf was guiding her training at the end of her career and did improve the height of her jumps, Raf always said that deep down inside she was "Frank's girl".
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  18. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    Considering technical ability, the answer should be Sasha. But the proof of the pudding is in the tasting and we all know Cohen has more medals because Gold got freaked out and bottled it more often.

    It's actually funny to me that Gold is as hyped as Cohen, because tech aside Sasha was a beautiful skater with a wow factor while Gracie's current inability to land the jumps only serves to mask the fact that she was always an introverted skater who struggled to connect with the the audience.

    But I know I know, nothing is every Gracie's fault. Skaters constantly talk about how they can only focus on themselves and how well they do and not worry about what the other skaters are doing, but apparently Gracie's inability to live up to the hype is all the fault of the other ladies who are just too damn tough to beat with falls, pops, and blank-faced zombie presentation. Oh if only she'd been lucky enough to have competed against Tonya and Midori, she would have had an easy coast to the top like that lucky Kristi :p

    Please don't torture me by forcing me to rewatch all of irina's awful programs. Maybe Med will go on to win 365 OGMs but it hasn't happened yet, and although there is no reason to predict she won't win a second worlds next month that too is a chicken counted before it has hatched. You're probably right, but considering that her shooting star came after a string of novas (sot, lip, tuck, rad, etc) I'm only cautiously optimistic.

    Edited to change pogo to rad. There so many here-today-gone-tomorrow Russian ladies these days I get them all confused.
     
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2017
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  19. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

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    @berthesghost I find the above comments interesting, and, for the most part, I neither agree nor disagree with them.
     
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  20. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear Well-Known Member

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    It'd be nice if you could have made your points without shitting on those past skaters. Technical demands changed. And while you may hold the current skaters to high esteem, older supposedly mediocre skaters like Butyrskaya and Suguri paved the way for the their countrywomen today.
     
  21. douglasottawa

    douglasottawa Banned Member

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    Mao Asada, Mike Ando, and young Japanese almost all idolized Midori Ito, and some cited Shizuka as an influence. Then some of the current ones even idolized Mao. Fumie didnt pave the way for anything. Name me one noteable young Japanese lady who cites Fumie as their idol or inspiration, LOL!

    And technically one could just as easily say that saying Wagner vs Michelle Kwan, what a joke, like bertheghost did is shitting on a skater too. I dont, I call it realism, just as everything I said also was realism.
     
  22. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

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    Come on now, even at best, it was way worse than that. But to each their own perspective.
     
  23. Areski

    Areski Member

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    You surely meant "a good performance or one with costly mistakes". Yeah Sasha Cohen was very consistent vs Gracie Gold in fact and with lots of medals while being younger than Gracie is now. People though underestimate social media factor effect on Gold though, in Cohen days that was no problem. Even before this disastrous season she was always hit-or-miss. I think she should have left Frank before this season. To br honest my favourite Gracie Gold skating come from 2013 - 2014 season.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  24. Areski

    Areski Member

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    I don't think it's fair to compare skaters who started many years before IJS era begun like Irina, from distinct generation to contemporary crop of skaters. Training methods also are improved nowadays. She would be totally different skater, all I know that she was incredibly talented from athletic point of view, would also compete well also if she was born 20 years later. I think you jump to conclusions too fast and seem quite disrespectful to champions from the past. Evgenia's jumps & consistency would not look the same either if she was born in 1980 let's say. It's not just Zhenya talent or physical shape, more like different technique.
     
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2017
  25. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

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    But-charr in that wheelchair Blanche! I love sports fans! A skater purposefully selects a coach and chooses to stay for years despite them being a wrong fit, and yet somehow all of these willful actions are everyone else's fault but the skater who's calling the shots. If only id know that she wasn't seeking a world title but a therapist who works on ice, then I'd have know that picking one of two guys who don't have a list of former WCs of their resumes would have been the right choice. Yup, when you really think about, if youre a skater with mad potential and hype who can't seem to get up to the top of that world podium, the guy who coached Chin and Cohen is the obvious choice!

    Anywho, thanks for the refresher course. I was so wrapped up in the news from the bowling green massacre back then that I forgot about how Frank gave up on Linda after she lost 79 worlds, fired Kwan after 97 nats and refused to work with Evan after 07 worlds. #alternativefacts. I wonder if the current White House are all fs fans.
     
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  26. SorrySkater

    SorrySkater New Member

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    I vote for Gracie. In reading the thread in its entirety, I can't help but compare Gracie to ... Ashley. I was not the biggest fan of Ashley's skating until she switched to John Nicks. I'm hoping that Marina transforms Gracie as John Nicks and Philip Glass transformed Ashley. I agree with all of those who say that Gracie should've left Frank Carroll a long time ago. The match just never seemed to work - at least, it seemed that way to me. Gracie needs to have the opportunity to grow and evolve as a skater, as Ashley did under Nicks, and I think Marina might be the one who can facilitate that growth.
     
  27. chapis

    chapis Well-Known Member

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    Are they still tied? :lol:
     
  28. gotoschool

    gotoschool Well-Known Member

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    I think Gracie especially but also Mao have had some issues with nerves recently, though I suspect more of Mao's issues have been due to her left knee injury, a consequent lack of training time, repeated illnesses since last season, and relatively deflated scoring. Mao's off and on back injury could have factored in as well. I like Mao's skating a lot more, but I think Gracie is a very good skater. However, I believe Gracie has received a lot more generous scoring than Mao beginning at the Sochi Olympics, so I won't evaluate their performances based simply on whether they make the Olympics or not but more so on how much their skating impresses me personally. For example. Mao received great praise for her Worlds LP 2016 in stark contrast to her deflated scores compared to Gracie and many more skaters at Worlds.

    I hope they are both successful next season, get control of their nerves and that Mao can be healthy and injury free at long last. And I really hope Mao keeps the same pair of skates throughout the season and doesn't change them a couple of times like it appears she did this season.
     
    Last edited: Feb 20, 2017 at 11:37 AM
  29. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

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    You are right there. Despite coming 4th worlds felt like nothing but a huge failure for Gold, the biggest of her career. She herself felt that way, to the point she hasnt recovered since and might never be able to. Everyone, herself included, thought this was going to be her breakthrough, at minimum to the world podium, and maybe the world title. Especialy after winning the short program. What happened was nothing short of devastating for her, the USFSA, her supporters, her fans. By contrast Mao's LP performance was a triumph of sorts in her comeback, although unfortunately it hasnt built to anything since.
     
  30. Fozzie Bear

    Fozzie Bear Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes: Fumie played a big part in bringing the spotlight to the Japanese ladies after the post-Midori-post-Yuka drought. The medals she won, plus the World and Olympic spots she secured, set the stage for those future ladies.

    berthesghost pointed out the ridiculousness of the example, but didn't denigrate Ashley's skating like you did with Fumie's.
     
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