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Gracie Gold or Mao Asada? Who do you think.....?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by AngieNikodinovLove, Feb 8, 2017.

Gracie Gold or Mao Asada? Who do you think.....?

  1. Gracie Gold

  2. Mao Asada

  1. AngieNikodinovLove

    AngieNikodinovLove Well-Known Member

    Well, both these top notch skaters had their poorest seasons of their career, and one is a multi World Champ and the other has all the talent to be one. Neither made their national teams.

    Next season in the Oly Season who do you think will come out having the stronger year between the two? WE HOPE FOR BOTH... but only you can pick one... Who??

    All things are possible. Carolina (whom just turned 30 big ones yesterday) looks to be skating better than ever albeit a bit slow.

    So, who do you think has the better chances of being a top notch contender next year during the Oly Cycle? Gracie after some time with new coaching (reportedly Marina and Oleg) and new environment or Mao Asada, the World Champ powerhouse whose PCS and technique have been steadily falling? Im not sure who I will pick... (I want them both on top of their game!)
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2017
  2. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

    My money would be on Gracie having a better season next year, she has youth on her side. Mao has been trending downward because she is battling a complement of injuries and wear-down in her body.

    With that said Mao is one of the true greats in the history of the sport. She is totally a legend, and nothing can knock her from that. Not even a couple of weaker seasons at the tail of her career.

    I hope both surprise and do great next season :)
  3. kittysk8ts

    kittysk8ts Well-Known Member

    I am going with Gracie for the sole reason that youth is on her side. Mao seems tired to me :( Rightfully so. Let us hope I am wrong. I am not ready to lose Mao....so not ready....
    Areski, kwanatic and Simone411 like this.
  4. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

    I voted for Mao simply because she's already done it at least once before. She's completely retooled herself before and already had one of the sport's most impressive comebacks... Just 2014 worlds alone was one for the ages. Right now her problems are physical, but her artistry has grown to become impressive and she's proven countless times that she has the nerve of a champion.

    Gracie's main problem is she hasn't the nerve of a champion, but that just tends to eclipse the fact that in 4 years she's never been able to have an artistic breakthrough and now on top of it all, her biggest strengths: jumps and consistency have left her, so it's just new problems on top of old problems that never got sorted.
  5. kittysk8ts

    kittysk8ts Well-Known Member

    I have faith that Marina will help rebuild Gracie emotionally and mentally, and that her jumps will come back from there. I have read and heard several people say that Marina is really good at this. Obviously Gracie will need to do the work. Fingers crossed.

    And I will always be Mao's corner.
  6. MAXSwagg

    MAXSwagg Well-Known Member

    Mao. She has had ups and downs but Gracie is absolutely a weak-minded competitor. Weak mentality...
    Areski and AxelAnnie like this.
  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Honestly I really feel it is 98% likely both are done, so it is hard for me to vote. I guess if I had to pick maybe Gracie only since she might try skating past 2018, while Mao almost certainly wont so has just 1 season left, but really both are done as serious contenders or even making it out of their country beyond grand prix assignments max IMO.
    douglasottawa and AxelAnnie like this.
  8. chapis

    chapis Well-Known Member

    I think is a good thing for Mao that people have so low expectatives with her. Maybe Gracie could benefit of something like that.
  9. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Gracie, since Mao will have a hard time making it out of Japan with so many good ladies there. Gracie will have to skate better than she did at the 2017 US Nationals to make the Olympics, but she won't have as many tough competitors to contend with.
  10. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

    I don't think any of these skaters take their fellow countrymen for granted. I mean, who would have thought Jose wouldn't be able to get out of nats in 96?
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
    douglasottawa likes this.
  11. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

    I think Gracie has a better chance of rebounding for two reasons: USA ladies aren't as deep as Japan at the very top and because I think she really wants it. She just lost her way after Boston.

    There's nothing in Mao's eyes that says she wants to be on the ice. So I'm not sure why she is skating unless JSF is encouraging her.
    It looks like a milder case than Ito's disastrous return in 1996 when she was such a shell of her former self on the ice. Was so hard to watch.
  12. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

    ^ but doesn't this logic contradict itself a bit? If Japan nats is so competitive with so many top ladies Mao would have a hard time making the team, why would the Japanese fed be pressuring her to stay? Not only are the next Olys not in Japan, but they even have a medal contender, something that wasn't even close to true in 96-98.

    And believe me, Gracie "wanted it" in Boston and wanted it bad, which is a big component of her "losing her way". If she didn't want it she'd have walked away from 4th with a positive attitude of still being in the mix, not devastated and in a tail spin by the "loss". And if the US ladies are so lame, why was Gracie 9th in the LP? I think people are underestimating how big of a hole she dug for herself this past season.
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2017
  13. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Honestly I am not sure where on earth this idea the Japanese ladies are currently so much stronger than the U.S ladies is coming from. Heck I think if anything the U.S ladies are probably stronger overall right now.

    Japan has their jewel- Miyahara, and a few pretty good skaters far behind her, that is it. With Mao's increasing decline who is their #2? Rika Hongo? Mai Mihara? Higuchi who was 2nd at Nationals this year? Hardly stellar, this sure as heck isnt the Russian ladies, LOL! Honda has alot of potential but is still really young at this point.

    And funny how the super deep Japan at worlds last year managed to put merely 1 women in the final flight at worlds last year, and that women finishing only 5th. The much weaker U.S managed a 2nd and 4th place finish. Chen and Wagner probably both win Japanese Nationals this year the way they skated at U.S Nationals or atleast push Miyahara super close, and destroy everyone else. That isnt even counting Edmunds who sure had climbed to being a solid skater when we last saw her, and hopefully will return to being that, and Nagasu who until her unfortunate Nationals LP had returned to that status as well. Again I think the U.S is atleast as strong as Japan now. Russia is light years ahead of both. Some massive overrating of the so called Japanese ladies depth right now, some of you in a time warp and thinking of 3 or 4 years ago.
  14. Simone411

    Simone411 FSU Uber fan

    I for one am not giving up on Gracie just yet. I'm glad she's changed coaches, and I mentioned in another thread that she should have done this a long time ago. When a coach starts digging at the skater he's training with comments that are atrocious, that doesn't help with the confidence at all. Instead, it makes the skater feel guilty and inferior ... something that should have never happened.

    Gracie has it all, but how does one deal with a coach digging at them and saying things like "She skated like "sh_t"?? We don't know everything that went on, and for all we know, she may have been dealing with it for a long time. We don't know if she's suffered from verbal abuse, but when a coach mentions publicly that his pupil/skater skated like "sh_t", that's not good. That's not good at all.

    Gracie may have just received her well-deserved Golden Ticket by finally having a new coach. This may be what's she's needed all along.
    haribobo likes this.
  15. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    Sometimes a skater needs to hear the truth though harsh as it may be. Gracie is not 14 she's a young woman now. As always it will come down to how she handles her nerves which i'm not sure any coach can help with at this point.
    AxelAnnie likes this.
  16. Simone411

    Simone411 FSU Uber fan

    No, Gracie's not 14 anymore. There's a big difference between a coach that tells the skater the truth explaining what needs to be done and a coach that shows nothing but negativity and telling the skater she skates like "sh_t". Having that kind of attitude won't do the skater any good and the skater ends up not believing in herself. It's better to encourage someone than to spout out negativity. That would go for anyone, not just a skater.
    haribobo likes this.
  17. haribobo

    haribobo Well-Known Member

    If anyone has lost their way, it is Frank. Please let that guy retire already.
  18. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

    Exactly. He finally got his Olympic Gold 7 years ago now. So given that is he still doing out there. Maybe he thinks if he keeps coaching until he is 100 they will award his princess Fratianne the Olympic Gold, which he will never stop believing was the biggest highway robbery in Olympic figure skating history even over Sotnikova over Kim when even American diehard see it at best something just below Baiul/Kerrigan. He is definitely past his prime as a coach, and needs to find someone else to do with his life before he has the final croak.

    Anyway back on topic you also have to remember even if Gold finally "gets it together" it might be too late. The judges aren't going to wait around for her forever and shower her a 150 LP the first time she finally does a good one outside of the U.S. Reputation is huge in the sport and while she is struggling and losing reputation all the time, others like Medvedeva and Zagitova who are probably better skaters than Gracie even at her best anyway are gaining judges respect and a huge edge in reputation and momentum. Gracie wouldn't suddenly be put over people like those after years of bombing, with no world medals, and now missing a U.S world team, even with a perfect competition, unless those others semi bomb and the competition is in the U.S. Even in the U.S with people like Chen emerging, Wagner still strong, and Edmunds back next season, they aren't going to just sit around salivating for the first time queen Gracie finally has a good competition and reserve a 80 and 155 for her when it happens, even after a year of being like 20th in the grand prix standings and coming 9th in the LP of her own Nationals. She isn't that much better than those even at her best that she can afford to have her status, reputation, and momentum continouslly drop and suddenly be scored the highest the first time she has a decent outing. The sport has never worked like that.
    Areski and berthesghost like this.
  19. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

    Gracie has been gradually losing her way a long time now, or atleast been stagnant, before her huge drop this season. Boston was the dream scenario for her, worlds in the U.S which was sure to lead to insanely biased pro U.S judging for Gold and Wagner, the same way Salt Lake City was sure to lead for heavily biased pro U.S judging for Hughes, Cohen, Kwan back in 2002. That is why Gold won the short program by 3 points despite deserving at best 2nd place atleast 2 points behind real short program winner Anna, and had worlds been anywhere but the U.S would likely be placed 3rd behind Medvedeva at best, even if I think her skate that day was better than a shaky Medvedeva. But if we are being real given Medvedeva's heavy favorite status coming in and that Gold's landings weren't exactly all assured and perfect either, that would be the result anywhere else. Wagner getting silver despite 3 jump mistake in her LP over a clean Anna and clean Satoko and clean Elena Rad which was ridiculous served as further evidence of his all time dream situation Gracie had with worlds in the U.S which she will never have again. With a clean skate she has silver assured, and might even have a shot at gold, and believe me that is the last time ever she would have a prayer of beating a clean Medvedeva even with a 3 point lead, I assure you of that. She blew it, didn't even medal, wasting her all time biggest opportunity, and now back to reality even on a good day she is a skater with bland and forgettable artistry which she never improved as bertheghost said, is a good jumper and spinner but hardly anything revolutionary or that stands out above what atleast 5 Russian girls on a good day can also do, along with always having had awful consistency which this past season dropped by like another 3 levels. Hardly seems like an easy scenario to climb out of, and she will never have the dream situation she had in Boston with her status as high as it has been, home ice with visibly biased pro American home ice judging, and USFSA favoring her as their clear #1 despite Wagner mostly having produced as good or better results the previous few years.

    Japan isn't that strong. Satoko is their only big force. Gracie might find it tougher to make future U.S teams than she would future Japan teams, so don't even get your point there either. Other than Satoko the spots in Japan are wide open, especialy with Mao going way down.

    Mao has a better shot to recover than Gracie since Japan is probably weaker in depth than the U.S, and most of all since she is a legend, which Gracie is not, and a struggling legend always has more shot to comeback than a struggling pretty good but not unworldly talent who for years underachiever and never had the huge breakthrough anyway. Even with dream scenario on a platter for her like Boston was. Even more considering Mao already made a huge comeback from the doldrums after everyone wrote her off after 2012, and to some degree even halfway through the 2010 Olympic season. Gracie never proved that and she isn't a legend like Mao is, truly special talent like Mao is, or true great of the sport to begin with.
    Areski and berthesghost like this.
  20. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    The Skating Lesson: Frank Carroll Pt. 2 at 1 minute, 45 seconds. The interview was done in March of 2013, about 6 months before he took Gracie.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2017
  21. Meoima

    Meoima Well-Known Member

    I don't trust both.
  22. CantALoop

    CantALoop Well-Known Member

    I wish Mao could recover, but I think this was her Kwan 2004-2005 year and Mao will probably have a similar fate going into 2018. Such a shame, because I really loved her programs from this year, but I think all her injuries and wear on her body have finally got the best of her.
    douglasottawa likes this.
  23. lala

    lala Well-Known Member

    I voted to Mao. She did it in the past.
    Areski and tamms like this.
  24. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

    I am leaning a little more towards Gracie which is weird b/c I have zero faith in her competitive abilities. However, she's moved out and is on her own now. Something seems to happen to skaters when they take control of their skating...it usually works out pretty well. I don't know if that will be the case for Gracie but I do expect to see something different in her skating next year. Whether it's good or bad, I don't know yet. Also Gracie has youth on her side and that's a plus.

    Mao is a warrior though. Last Olympic season she came out looking new and refreshed. She'll be about 4 years older so that would be the only issue. She's not snapping her jumps as quickly and her rotation isn't very good. Beyond her jumps however her overall skating is at an all-time high IMO. Great programs, gorgeous expression, skating skills, spins, presentation...all exceptional. I'm cheering hard for her. I don't know what will happen next year. If she can regain some of her form she'll be on that Oly team...but if she has another season like this year, she won't make it.

    I'm crossing my fingers for both. Mao has my heart and Gracie has my pity. I'd like to see both of them make changes and come back stronger next year.
  25. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

    Do you think Gracie is planning to go for 2022, particularly if she doesnt make the 2018 Olympic Team? With no pro circuit it seems customary for skaters to have longer careers today, particularly North Americans who really have nowhere to go. If you are Asian for instance, you have far more opportunity. She is easily young enough, but she talked about not wanting to go past 2018 and said so many times, but if she doesnt have a big enough comeback next year to atleast get on the U.S Olympic team she might rethink that. I think it depends alot on her year next year.

    I would be amazed if Mao even tries to go past year. She will have been around for 3 full Olympic cycles, she is probably the 2006 Olympic Champion without the silly age rule that year and that is 12 years ago. And she will be nearly 30. Then again Kostner is trying a comeback at age 30 which I never expected to see, and looking quite good at Europeans to boot which I didnt expect either, especialy seeing how much Mao is struggling. So maybe Mao will surprise everyone and go past next season too.

    I think in her case it might come down to how good a year she has next season too, since she probably doesnt want to end her career on a down note. At a certain point and age you have to be careful since nobody wants to end up like Fumie Suguri, and it would be much sadder for Mao who unlike Fumie is an absolute legend and truly special icon of the sport.
  26. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

    Re: Gracie continuing...I don't know. I think a lot of that will depend on what her season is like next year. If she struggles all year a la this year and misses out on the team badly, I doubt she'd continue. But say she has a stronger year and just misses the team...that might be enough to motivate her to continue for another year or so. Honestly, there's no way to tell where her head is.

    As for Mao, she's already made her mark on this sport so everything she does now is extra. I really want to see her come back strongly but time isn't on her side. Her jumps aren't where they used to be and she's lost a lot of ground in her own country to younger skaters. Even if she weren't doing well internationally, as long as she's good enough to secure a spot on the World team she'd have been okay. Mao finished 12th at nationals this year... She has a lot of work to do to get her technical content back to being competitive but if she can get it back she'll definitely make the team.
    slipchuk likes this.
  27. slipchuk

    slipchuk Active Member

    I feel bad for Mao still over the 2006 age rules even more since they changed since. Had it been what the it is today, and which I think 2006 was the only Olympic year it was set as that, she is almost without question the 2006 Olympic Champion which would complete her career. Heck maybe she doesnt blow the short program in Sochi, and is a 2 time Olympic Gold and 1 time Olympic silver medalist, to go with her out burgeoning achievements. I remember Michelle Kwan joking in practices at Turin whoever won the Olympic Gold, whether that be her or someone else, would have the asterisk thanks to the ISU "what if Mao were here". Meanwhile Slutskaya was asked by one reporter in an early practice "you are clearly the favorite here, but even with Sasha Cohen, Fumie Suguri, Michelle Kwan, Carolina Kostner, and others all here to compete will your win be tainted if you do win since Mao who just beat you decisively at the Grand Prix final is not here" and Irina got pissy, lol! As it turns out the gold medal went to Shizuka with a watered down 5 triple program, someone Mao was 4-0 against that season. The gold medal at worlds later that year went to Meissner, who Mao had crushed in every junior head to head.

    Oh well she is still one of the legends and godesses of the sport even without an Olympic Gold medal but her having to miss 2006 was tragically wrong IMO. And seeing her skate the best ladies performance in skating history IMO in the Sochi LP and not win gold due to what happened in the short program is almost equally tragic, although seeing her skate a clean short and lose gold with that LP due to the crazy politics in favor of Sotnikova there would have been even more tragic, so maybe best to leave well enough alone there.

    Gold does nothing for me to be honest. I respect her technical abilities and talent, but she just never had a style of her own, or something that drew her to me. Add that being always hyped up to do something big and never delivering, and her consistency issues and I have never been able to be a fan, and I tried hard, I really did. I do hope for her to have a good season next year and maybe even make the U.S Olympic team (at this point even that will be a victory and triumph for her), despite there being atleast 5 U.S ladies who I like more than her. I just know it would be crushing emotionally for her to not atleast make the Olympics next year given all that people expect of her, although hopefully the expectations go way down after her Nationals showing since the last thing she needs is crazy pressure and expectations. The only one who would be more crushed to make the team is Wagner, so I guess I am rooting for a Wagner (likely), Gold (unlikely) and anyone else 3 women team next year. Lets hope there is even 3 spots which is far from a sure thing.
    Spun Silver and douglasottawa like this.
  28. chapis

    chapis Well-Known Member

    I adore to Mao but I never got upset or frustrated about 2006 olympics, rules are rules, and Mao has been a nervous competitor, we canĀ“t be sure she could be clean at Torino, plus Yuna would have been competing too. And I think one of the situations kept her motivated for a long career was the lack of the olympic gold medal.
    mikeko and douglasottawa like this.
  29. douglasottawa

    douglasottawa Banned Member

    It is the fault of the American public, USFSA, and Frank Carrol. They put too much pressure on her. They want her to be winning gold at every event when she dont even have a world medal. Not fair pressure for a skater of her ilk, and causes her to implode to nerves and stress.

    Look at how depressed she was over being 4th at worlds when it tied her career best at worlds and Olympics she made a few times now. That just shows how the pressure of expectations by American public and higher ups cripples the poor girl.
  30. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    It is very difficult. Both are super talented. But Gracie seems more of a mental problem.
    And Gracie is younger. So I'd say Gracie can come back more easily than Mao.
    But honestly, I want both to come back at their level. Their skating is fabulous.