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FS Performances Before CoP that would score high under CoP

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by aftershocks, Dec 4, 2010.

  1. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Amazing performances that would score high under CoP, but also show that CoP's impact has hurt the creative development of skaters to a great degree. These skaters are not thinking "points-gathering," they are one with the music and their performances are uplifting. What other performances are there before CoP that would score high under CoP?





    This was just gorgeous, inspiring skating: 1998 World Pro-Am Artistic


    Ah well, the first two performances linked were under CoP -- perhaps the first season CoP was fully implemented, but a long way from all the additional changes. In any case, Johnny rocked the performances and showed how to do it under Cop, but he wasn't thinking of points-gathering. The moves just flowed out of him, and then from 2005 Worlds onward, it became more difficult for him, and the judges became more harsh in how they viewed him, for varying reasons.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2010
  2. Jarrett

    Jarrett Firebird for worlds!

    Mute any of Johnny's program and I would have a hard time telling any of them apart.
  3. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    Then you are blind. He was much better before leaving Priscilla Hill.
  4. cailuj365

    cailuj365 Well-Known Member

    I agree. Johnny used to be the poster boy for CoP in 2004, and he was favorable to it himself before he got disillusioned with it (and the judges with him).

    Thanks for posting those links. Sometimes, I'm so disappointed in how Johnny never managed to adapt to the points-gathering strategy that I forgot how lovely and refreshing his style actually was in skating when he first burst onto the scene.

    I think the best example of Johnny's pre-COP skating was his 2003-04 Valse Triste SP.
  5. Seerek

    Seerek Well-Known Member

    There was a CoP exercise done on the 1988 Women's Olympic programs last year that would have noticeably changed the results - Kadavy winning the SP and Ito winning the LP.
  6. CaptCrunch

    CaptCrunch New Member

    That should have been the results under 6.0 as well. CoP had nothing to do with that iMO. Kadavy and Ito had the best performances and that best skates that night. CoP is a terrible system to use for figure skating and because of it the general public is is having a hard time understanding results. 6.0 was a much better system cause all it did was rank skaters. Unfortunately the ISU has always been a misguided organization so even under 6.0 the judging was way too conservative.
  7. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Interesting take CaptCrunch -- ITA!

    Thanks for your posts, Libertango. I hadn't seen that before of the very young Jeff Buttle. Apparently, he skated better at his first senior GP event than the veterans. I've always thought Jeff was an interesting skater, especially choreographically, and with his great edges. He always had trouble with his 3axel though. That is why it was surprising to see him skate so perfectly at 2008 Worlds. I think JB knew the window of opportunity was lessening for him. He trained hard and came back determined, taking some inspiration I think from some of his competitors, including his countryman, a young Chan who was up-and-coming, and JWeir, who had a very strong 2007-2008 season. The judges picked Buttle over Weir for Worlds 2008 sp, but that was simply preference/ politics, b/c IMO, there was nothing that separated either of their brilliant sp performances. Johnny didn't do as well in the free that year, but he was the only American to medal in Sweden -- JWe then comes back the following year (unfortunately with weak choreo, and then illness, and then was dumped on by his Fed). It was the original Poker Face exhibition during Fashion Week, and then later the premiere of Pop Star on Ice that helped boost JWe's visibility and confidence, which aided him in coming back to try hard for an Olympic berth in 2010.

    Thanks cailuj365. ITA re JWe's Valse Triste sp. It is simply a classic -- the costume has often been copied. Even after TEB sp in 2007, everyone started wearing red and black (not because it had never been worn before), but b/c Johnny made it look bold, new and different, especially with the graphic patterning, and the exquisite choreography he laid down. At NHK that same season, there was a young Dai Takahashi performing, and he got a close-up look at JWe. I don't think there is a youtube posting of Dai's performance at NHK that year (he was a junior skater to Takeshi Honda), but I have a tape of that NHK event. It was the first time I saw Dai -- he had such raw talent and wonderful jumps, but he lacked the polish and smoothness he later developed. I think that for Dai, seeing Johnny Weir perform was a revelation -- just as it was for many in the sport that season.

    Another of Johnny's pre CoP performances:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhFvPHB_aKg 2003 Nats sp

    Even though JWe's lp that year was disastrous, his sp won him a special award. Great choreography and great music; wonderful footwork and difficult entrances into jumps.

    Thanks also Libertango for those postings of Elena and Anton. Gorgeous skating. I always enjoyed watching them, but at times I felt they were held up when they didn't perform well. At that time, although I really liked Elena and Anton, Sale & Pelletier were my favorites, and Shen and Zhao were also amazing, but never talked about in the same breath (though their time would come). Whenever fans speak of how exquisite Anton and Elena were at 2002 Olympics, I do agree, especially in the sp, but there was the small mistake by Anton in lp, and Jamie Sale's jump landings were smooth, steady and textbook perfect vs. Elena's that while landed well, were not as steady. IMO, those were the only differences -- everything else was preference and politics, and dealmaking amongst the judges (business as usual in fs) -- only this time the the dealmaking was uncovered and became a scandal. In fact, there was not much that truly separated S&P and B&S, IMHO, in terms of skill level, technique and beauty on the ice. S&P were a classic demonstration of North American style, while B&S were a classic demonstration of Russian style.

    Many fans look at B&S's perfect Olympic 2002 SP and say they should have won -- they did win the sp (S&P opted for a cute, humorous sp, that didn't have the same depth and impact, but it did have technical difficulty). In the free program, although the choreography may have been simpler, S&P did also have technical difficulty, and they performed everything with perfection. Therefore, it is a matter of taste, preference, and politics. Both teams, (and indeed, the third team S&Z) were all very close in ability, technique and artistry. Hands down S&P have had the better pro career. In any case, speaking of gorgeous pair skating, this is classic too:

  8. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    Pretty much everything Delobel and Schoenfelder did from 2000 onward. :p
  9. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

    Kwan's 97 Taj Mahal LP at Worlds should have scored rather well:
    and I think that Red Violin, as skated at Skate America would have done well too:
    (by worlds the jumps were better, but imo some of the best choreography had been taken out.)
    B&S Swan Lake 1998 SP
    not so much because of complexity, but because the execution was so beautiful and clean, the speed and edging were fabulous, and we don't get to see pairs skating like that very much.

    And most of Kurt Browning's programs would have probably scored very, very well under COP.
  10. shan

    shan Well-Known Member

    :swoon: I miss them.
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  11. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010
  12. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    A lot of the french ladies were doing CoP-ish style spins back under 6.0.

    Gusmeroli and Bonaly would do all sorts of catch foot combo spins, and Gusmeroli and Hubert would do reverse entry combination spins and camel spins with changes of edge.

    Also should be mentioned; Savoie, Klimkin, Jeannette. All did CoP-ish programs under 6.0 that were never given enough credit.

    Lucinda Ruh probably would have fared slightly better under CoP than 6.0 becuase she would rack up high levels and +3 GOE on her spins and her PCS would probably be given more credit.

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    Rudy Galindo's Swan Lake 1996 US Nationals
    mysticchic and (deleted member) like this.
  14. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    Yes but most of her triples would have been downgraded.
  15. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

    Nicole Bobek's 1995 LP was pretty COP friendly in terms of transitions and choreography for its time. Her Worlds version jump layout was 3Lutz+3toe, 3flip+2toe, split falling leaf+3toe, 2Axel into a spread eagle, x3-turn into a 3loop, x1 foot Axel+3Salchow, xsplit falling leaf into 2Axel.
    Her Nationals version jump layout was 3Lutz, 3flip+2toe, split falling leaf+3toe, 2Axel into a spread eagle, x3-turn into a 3loop, xback spiral into 3Salchow, xsplit falling leaf+3toe+2toe.
  16. skategal

    skategal Bunny slave

    Kurt Browning 1994 Casablanca
  17. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Elaine Zayak - '82 and '84 Worlds.

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    For that matter, Elaine at 1981 and 1980 Worlds & 1981 us Nationals
    Most of the jumps had transitions on either the entry or exit or both :eek:
    2lz(yes correct edge)3T
    2A 2A sequence into flying sit spin hop resume flying sit spin
    turns, kicks, steps both direction
    walley 3S
    3T2Lp into flying camel
    Little standing spin
    Spiral, dip, spiral, 3R
    spread eagle into camel spin with change of edge
    Ina Bauer on an amazing spiral curve into a 3S into a short layback
    footwork into 2A
    split jump into 3t2LP
    Finish up with 2A with a number of hops and jumps into a 3t , followed by a short layback and a final scratch spin.

    Two COP criticisms: she tended not to hold the spins long enough, and there should have been another F/W sequence, however, she was too busy jumping to do it :)
  19. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Still, I remembered her spins had decent position, centering, and speed - she had a variation on the camel in '81 - '82 SP where she clasped both hands behind her back which is a CoP maneuver today. Also, her layback had a really good arch

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    In later year's performances, I think she did more revs. She could spin fast-she just didn't unless the music called for it. Yes, her positions were good, and centering good.

    Plus she had a change of edge camel in there, and that double flying sit spin that I've always gotten a kick out of.
  21. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    I think looking at each of the program components, and also at the degree of negative GOEs on spins as well as jumps, would explain a lot about why this LP earned more second-place ordinals than this one than just counting number of triples landed.

    We can't really say who "would have won" under IJS rules because the well-balanced program rules have changed enough just within the IJS era, let alone between 1991 and 2010, to even make it clear which elements should count or not count or which jumps should count as sequences.
  22. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    Surya would've placed higher many times under COP
  23. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    I have to disagree with you that B&S and S&P were same skill level, or that S&P had more difficulty in their LP. B&S were head and shoulders above any other pair at that time, when it came to skating skills, and I am not just talking about stroking. Their transitions, changing hand holds, lines, unison, posture, and speed were far superior to S&P's. It's easy to be consistent on jumps and throws when you don't worry about the entry, position, lines and posture,and skate slower. (and S&P were not even consistent on jumps, they landed their jumps but without great unison)

    When you talk about difficult choreography, S&P's Love Story was nowhere close to B&S's extremely difficult choreography, with each difficult move connecting another difficult move, with just a few cross overs between the moves, and achieving the speed needed to do the next move. S&P were just doing several cross overs before their moves - big difference. That's what made B&S so special. It was not just the beauty of their skating, and it was not just a cultural thing/different taste/style when you compare the two pairs. The North American media hyped up S&P before the Olympics to make people believe that they were as good as (or better than) B&S, who were the third rate Russians who were only winning by bribing the judges. Nothing was further from the truth.

    I saw the 2002 Olympics live in Salt Lake City (both SP & LP). I am not saying B&S should have won because they had a great SP but because they skated two great programs. One of them had a small mistake (a step out on a 2A). These days we are seeing skaters win with multiple falls and it's accepted. Even in 2006 Pang & Tong won the worlds with a fall in their LP, so you really can't make a big deal of Anton's small mistake, considering the level of difficulty of their program. No other pair at that time could skate a program that was so complex choreographically. Now the COP is kind of forcing skaters to increase the complexity.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010
  24. DinDonShamu

    DinDonShamu Well-Known Member

    B/S would have won in Salt Lake with CoP hands down.

    However, though S/P were juniorish in terms of transition and program construction compare to the rest of the top 10, I feel they are very under appreciated on this board. Many posters here suggested that S/P didn't have the skills and only got anywhere close to B/S because of politiks and media hype (not directing this at you Vash, but many many others here), but they did have at least better lifts, twists, death spirals, and SBS spins than B/S.

    And I actually think S/P defined the term "unison" in pair skating this decade. S/P just moved as one and took my breath away the first time I saw them in 2002. They were made for each other as in their bodies were on the exact same wavelength. The only break of unison I could remember from S/P when they skated relatively well were their SBS jumps. Even my parents, who were not skating fans, remembered the unison and the "beauty" (though I don't agree :p) of a Canadian pair years back but couldn't recall whoever else was competing with them, so I guess it really boiled down to the style thing.
  25. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C


    I totally disagree about the unison part. S&P defined unison? How? Their sbs jumps were never in unison, while B&S had great unison on their jumps and spins. S&P did sbs bunny hops in great unison, or they skated sbs in unison- that's hardly an achievement. I am not sure why you think S&P had better spins. I don't see the positions or speed in their spins, and B&S definitely had better unison on the spins. As far as lifts are concerned, Canadian pairs have always had more complex lifts, but without the positions or lines the Russian pairs did, so I will give them the complexity part. S&P did have a better split 3 twist; no argument there. Some of the death spirals were done better by S&P (BIDS in particular), but when you talk about COP, the transitions- how the moves are connected- S&P were nowhere close to B&S, and yes, politics played a huge part in their meteoric rise to the top. Unlike other pairs/skaters they did not have to pay their dues. They were held up even with falls and mistakes. They did not have the speed and difficult choreography to overcome a fall; B&S did. It wasn't just a style difference; there was a difference in the skill levels, and with COP B&S would have won hands down.
  26. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    Surya would have had high TES base values under the IJS, but her GOEs and PCS would have been low. Early in her career:

    - She did not really use edges to enter jumps.
    - Her step sequences were not usually a sequence of skating steps or turns.
    - Until 1998, her skating skills were really behind most novice skaters.

    She had one program that would have done better under the IJS than 6.0.

    1998 Olympics Ladies SP Surya Bonaly

    Under the IJS, her 3T/3T would have scored better than the standard 3Lz/2T and her 3S would have scored better than the standard 3T. The overall program construction was the best of her career and, after skating at the Senior World level for 10 years, she finally had skating that looked like it.

    She certainly no longer looked like this skater :yikes:

    Surya Bonaly (FRA) - 1989 World Figure Skating Championships, Ladies' Free Skate

    . . . which would have had a very high TES base values but lots of -3 GOEs and 3 in the PCS categories, I might add.
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2010
  27. DinDonShamu

    DinDonShamu Well-Known Member

    Looking back at SLC, S/P did have wonderful sit and camel positions (though not as "stretched" as B/S), along with wonderful death drops in the free. In fact, their SBS spins were faster than B/S. I'm totally :confused: as to whether we have been watching the same performances.

    She also had very good positions on all their lifts. I'll look up what makes up good positions again but I think their star and lasso lifts were textbook, once again not as balletic and 'graceful' if you will as B/S's, but that's totally up to individual preference. As you can probably tell by now I don't find balletic lines essential in pairs.

    But I do agree S/P would have been (or should have been) completely hosed in CoP. Their transition scores worthed nor more than 2. And the so-called "footworks" :slinkaway
  28. ks1227

    ks1227 Well-Known Member

    I think this is a really interesting point.

    On the other hand, all three of them would have lost points elsewhere under CoP (especially Bonaly). I say that as a huge fan of both Hubert and Gusmeroli. And some of their spins were not that good, e.g., Hubert's layback. However Hubert and Gusmeroli would have (or at least, should have) gotten much higher SS scores than Bonaly.
  29. topaz

    topaz Well-Known Member

    This is the debate of the debates. :scream:

    I personally think it was no contest. B/S were faster, both programs were more difficult, better skating skills than S/P. B/S is maybe the fastest pairs team ever, EVER.

    I understand that B/S made a mistake on the LP, but overall the program has held up. The program has incredible transitions and CH. I do think the judges took into the account the S/P skated a very comfortable program for them(nothing new or different). B/S took the chance, I've always said B/S should have countered and skated their City Lights. If they did, we wouldn't have this conversation.

    Also, Anton Sikharulidze is better skater than David P.