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Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ladies ROUND 8

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SamuraiK, Jul 1, 2012.

Who is the weakest link among these past champions?

Poll closed Jul 6, 2012.
  1. Lu Chen

    137 vote(s)
  2. Michelle Kwan

    21 vote(s)
  3. Irina Slutskaya

    43 vote(s)
  4. Mao Asada

    120 vote(s)
  5. Yuna Kim

    29 vote(s)
  1. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Your Planet, it might be the jetlag ;)
    Seriously, at 2001 Worlds, she attempted two 3/3/2. It was not the case at 2001 Russian Nats, with one, cheated 3Lutz/3Loop.
    So, maybe we can consider her 2001 Russian Nats LP better, but not by much, IMO :)
  2. RD

    RD Well-Known Member

    hasn't that been the way people have been voting all this time? Judging by the results, it seems so :shuffle:
  3. WindSpirit

    WindSpirit OmnipresentAdmeanistrator

    Amy03 & antmanb, please take your squabbles to PM. Thank you.
  4. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Attempting a 2nd 3-3 means nothing since she missed it, so it ended up being a negative, not a postiive. In fact it was attempting and missing the 2nd 3/3 that lost her the gold (likely). At Russian Nationals she landed a harder 3/3, did not make a significant mistake like at Worlds, and did not rearrange her program and have other shaky moments in the 2nd half. No contest her Russian Nationals performance was better.

    As you said pretty much all her 3/3s were slightly cheated so no difference there. Sarah Hughes were even more cheated and still always counted as evidenced by her tech. scores which with her fugly, technically wrong, and small jumps she would never get without the 3/3s she did. That was 6.0 for you, for better or worse.
  5. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    And now I'm starting to wonder if we'll ever be able to see Yuna's triple loop in the future with these discussions about having all-round triple jumps.
  6. bartek

    bartek Active Member

    Half of Michelle's jumps in her glorious SOTBS winning program were underrotated including her triple-triple combination.

    :rofl: Even if we consider the fact that those two triple-triples were not the best quality, the performance itself slays technically everyhting Michelle did in her whole career. As do 2005 Worlds even with the third triple loop...
  7. Jarrett

    Jarrett Firebird for worlds!

    I agree, all of Michelle's competition wins were a complete farse! :violin:
  8. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

    Really? If it Irina's RN LP in 2001 slays Kwan so easily then how come one step-out at worlds in the same routine was enough to make 7 judges go for Kwan? You can spout on and on, but it's just speculation on your part.

    And in 2005, maybe you should watch again. In addition to violating the Zayak rule :duh:, Slutskaya's final combo spin was a mess and she forget her footwork sequence midway down the rink and stumbled awkwardly. Oh, and there was also her short program. Yes, it was a great competition for Irina, but as usual her lack of attention to detail and not finishing off her elements left a "sloppy image" to the end of her program as Peggy would say.

    I like Slutskaya. I'm not a fan, but I respect her competitive spirit, her willingness to take risk, and the difficulty in many of her elements. I wanted her to win the 2006 OGM. But I personally don't think she ever skated a long program that could top Kwan at her best. In the long program, presentation had slightly more emphasis and was the tie breaker. Michelle was able to make her programs look seamless, well-balanced, and had an understanding of presentation that Irina just never developed.
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
  9. bartek

    bartek Active Member

    I did not say it slays Michelle's performance overall, I said it slays it technically. Under 6.0 stepping up and messing up the whole combination the way Irina did, it was penalised quite severely. Yet, the judges still awarded Irina higher marks for technical merit than Michelle who won on the strength of her presentation marks. If performance with the big mistake on a combination is given higher marks for technical merit, then flawless performance from 2001 Nats surely slays Kwan's SOTBS technically.

    I wouldn't ever call Irina's 2005 Worlds free skate sloppy. Her 2001 Worlds FS definitely can be called sloppy, I agree, but not her winning skate from 2005 Worlds. Personally, I think this performance, apart from being extraordinary technically EVEN WITH the third triple loop, is one of the most moving and emotional performance in skating history. After she'd been through the previous season, she pulled off seven triples (the third triple loop is still triple) with the most difficult triple-triple done by a lady ever in competition and her joy of skating was simply unmatched.

    Also, it's not just my opinion that Michelle flutzed. You can go to youtube, pick up the first Michelle's performance you can think of, watch the slow-motion for the lutz and see it yourself. She just couldn't stay on the outside edge and always took off from either shallow inside edge or flat. The thing with flutzing, it's not like in my opinion she flutzed and you reckon she did not. It's plain and simple that she changed her edge just before taking off and everyone can see that.
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  10. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    In fairness it seems bartek is ONLY talking about the technical side, and Irina even with her mistakes did still score higher than Michelle on the technical marks (slightly) in the LP at the 2001 Worlds. Granted that makes bartek's arguments faulty to begin with as figure skating is not just about the technical side. As bartek is a bigtime Miki Ando backer you can already tell the technical side is all that would be important to this poster though. :lol:

    In fairness I can sort of see the point of a few people. I think Michelle Kwan is still excellent technically, one of the best in the World, and that combined with her World best artistry and great competitive spirit and reputation accumulated over the years (I dont even mind skaters getting reputation marks as IMO they all earn that reputation) resulted in her historic career with 5 World titles, 9 World medals, 9 U.S titles, and all her other achievements. However when you break it down closer if results were determined only by technical marks Michelle would have won only 1 of her 5 Worlds:

    1996- Would have won.

    1997- Would have been 3rd in the LP behind Tara and Irina, 5th in the short behind Czako, and in fact 4th overall it appears.

    1998- Would have been 3rd in the LP behind Irina and Maria, and probably 2nd to Irina overall even with Irina missing her combination and having a fall in the LP as well.

    2000- Would have been 2nd in the LP behind Irina (I disagreed as Irina had only 6 triples, a big pop open, no triple-triple try, and her 2nd triple lutz might have been 2 footed, while Michelle had a spectacular clear 7 triple with a triple-triple program, but Irina did slightly win the tech. score by the judges).

    2001- Would have been 2nd to Irina.

    2003- Would have been 2nd to Sokolova (I disagree slightly with the judges here too as Sokolova's non jump tech. elements are pretty average, and dont compare to Slutskaya's or Kwan's, but in the judges eyes she won the tech. mark).

    As for some of her other World medals:

    1999- Would have been 4th behind Butyrskaya, Soldatova, and Malinina in the LP. Not sure of her SP placing, but probably down in about 8th.

    2004- Would have been 3rd in LP behind Arakawa and Ando and out of medals overall.

    So while that is in a way irrelevant as her artistic marks combined with the (most of the time) still very strong technical marks carried her to deserved finishes on each occasion, I can see the point how technically she was not as strong relatively speaking to the greatest.

    Someone like Yu Na Kim in each GP final, Worlds, or Olympics, she won, did convincingly win both the combined technical and artistic mark.
  11. magnolia

    magnolia New Member

    Well, if everyone was already voting simply to keep their favorites, this is what the poll actuall indicated:

    There are 144 (38.61% anti-Lu Chen) Mao fans.
    There are 21 (5.63% anti-Michelle) Irina fans.
    There are 88 (23.59%) [43 (11.53% anti-Irina) + 45 (12.06% anti-Yuna)] Michelle fans.
    There are 120 (32.17% anti-Mao) Yuna fans.

  12. kwanatic

    kwanatic Well-Known Member

    I'll save all of my Michelle vs Irina stuff for later...several rounds of voting left. I'll just say Michelle's balance of the technical with the artistic and presentation combined with her consistency and mental focus are why she was able to beat out skaters with bigger jumps and harder spins...

    Next round :)
    Last edited: Jul 7, 2012
  13. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Well-Known Member


    144 Mao fans :lynch: Lu Chen

    120 Yuna fans :lynch: Mao

    88 Michelle fans :lynch: Irina and :scream: Yuna

    21 Irina fans :lynch: Michelle

    But no Lu Chen fan on Earth? :confused:
  14. falling_dance

    falling_dance Coaching Patrick

    They are saintly intellectuals, beyond such trifles as this silly internet poll. :saint:
    RunnersHigh and (deleted member) like this.
  15. os168

    os168 Active Member

    Well... There are also polls in Chinese boards. Guess who always wins :D
    RunnersHigh and (deleted member) like this.
  16. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Stop! You're embarrassing me! :eek:
  17. falling_dance

    falling_dance Coaching Patrick

    Ah, so they're not always beyond embarrassability. :2faced: