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Figure Skating Champions SURVIVOR: Ice Dance ROUND 5

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by SamuraiK, Jul 5, 2012.

Who is the weakest link among these past champions

Poll closed Jul 10, 2012.
  1. Grishuk & Platov

    3 vote(s)
  2. Krylova & Ovsiannikov

    5 vote(s)
  3. Anissina & Peizerat

    2 vote(s)
  4. Navka & Kostomarov

    52 vote(s)
  5. Denkova & Staviski

    25 vote(s)
  6. Delobel & Schoenfelder

    100 vote(s)
  7. Virtue & Moir

    25 vote(s)
  8. Davis & White

    49 vote(s)
  1. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

    Fine pioneers for North American Dance they were but the tribe has decided hydroblading can only take them so far...

    9TH PLACE: BOURNE & KRAATZ (41.85% of votes)

    The remaining contender are:

    (Short Dance Links this time)
    01. Oksana Grishuk & Evgeny Platov - RUS - 1994,1995,1996 & 1997 Worlds and 1994 & 1998 Olympic Champions.
    02. Angelica Krylova & Oleg Ovsiannikov - RUS - 1998 and 1999 World Champions.
    03. Marina Anissina & Gwendal Peizerat - FRA - 2000 World and 2002 Olympic Champions.
    04. Tatiana Navka & Roman Kostomarov - RUS - 2004 & 2005 World and 2006 Olympic Champions.
    05. Albena Denkova & Maxim Staviski - BUL - 2006 and 2007 World Champions.
    06. Isabelle Delobel & Olivier Schoenfelder - FRA - 2008 World Champions.
    07.Tessa Virtue & Scott Moir - CAN - 2010 & 2012 World and 2010 Olympic Champions.
    08. Meryl Davis & Charlie White - USA - 2011 World Champions.

    Already Eliminated:
    10th Place: Lobacheva & Averbukh (46.60% votes)
    11th Place: Domnina & Shabalin (29.65% votes)
    12th Place: Fusar-Poli & Margaglio (48.77% votes)

    A third of the teams are gone, who's the NEXT? You decide.;)
    Last edited: Jul 5, 2012
  2. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

    It's time for Delobel & Schoenfelder to go:

    Let's be realistic. They are extremely lucky to be included in this poll at all. They should thank Shabalin was such an idiot to compete at Euros a week after his surgery sidelining him for the rest of the season (and ruining his carrerr) and that Tanith fell so stupidly on the CD at 2008 Worlds. Even then, they didn't win the FD (losing to still up and comers at that time V&M).

    Don't get me wrong, they were voidy, lovely and excellent skaters, better than one or two teams still here but great champions they were NOT. Bye bye.
  3. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Delobel & Schoenfelder are outclassed by this point. In their defense I do fully expect they would have defended their World title in 2009 without her fluke injury a the GP final, and without that and her pregnancy they almost certainly would have won atleast silver in Vancouver IMO. So they had both bad luck and good luck (2008 Worlds). In the end with only 1 World or Olympic medal they dont stack up to these others though, and in technical ability they dont either except to Roman Kostomarov.
  4. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Delobel and Schoenfelder, same reasons as last time. I think they should have gone before B&K and maybe L&A actually. I think they would have got bronze maybe in Vancouver if she hadn't been pregnant shortly before but I don't think they would have beaten Davis and White for silver. As for the world title in 2009, they probably would have won since Domnina and Shabalin didn't skate that well for it and V&M and D&W were not quite as good as they were in '10. I assume Delobel and Schoenfelder WILL be voted out this round, then it's going to be really hard. I'm leaning toward either N&K or D&W for the next vote-out.
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    If they were the reigning 2 time World Champions the judges would have given them atleast silver if they were remotedly sharp and trained. This is ice dancing remember and Davis & White were average artistically in 2010, not that good in compulsories, and doing a drab run of the mill FD (even if already superb technically), and had never won a World medal. They only won silver since the rest were so bad in Vancouver that the judges had no choice, except for B&A, but the USFSA had given the ok to the changing of the guard pre Vancouver. The D&W of now have come a long way since even 2010, plus they have the rep in a huge way now, which if more teams were strong in the 09-2010 they wouldnt have gotten so easily given the nature of the event.
  6. Judge Dred

    Judge Dred Active Member

    Delobel & Schoenfelder
  7. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

    Davis & White zzzzzzzzzzzzz
  8. gingercrush

    gingercrush Well-Known Member

    Wow where are the Navka & Kostomorov votes coming from?

    Anyway I'm going to go with Delobel & Schoenfelder even though I think a case could be made for Davis & White. I'm doing this because I can't believe how trigger happy people are towards Navka & Kostomorov.
  9. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    I didn't vote for N&K, but I considered it. They're just boring, and use overused, cliche music pieces that other top dance teams have used (and they don't do them as well as those past teams). Plus, they had a very short run at the top and should only have one world title since Denkova and Staviski should have beaten them in 2004.
  10. gingercrush

    gingercrush Well-Known Member

    Oh I'm not their biggest fans either I just think its too early. Honestly the way I feel right now the list of who goes from now is this:

    Delobel & Schoenfelder
    Davis & White
    Navka & Kostomorov
    Anissina & Peizerat
    Virtue & Moir
    Denkova & Staviski
    Krylova & Ovsiannikov

    Winner: Grishuk & Platov

    I think I'm a bit bias towards Denkova & Staviski but I do like them.
  11. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    They were on top for 3 seasons in a row, and you call that short. :lol: No ice dancing team since G&P retired in 1998 has been on top that many seasons in a row except for them. Even if they had lost the 2004 Worlds to D&S they still arguably would have been the top team of the season as they would have still gone 3-1 vs D&S and won every other event that year.
  12. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    I know I'm fighting a losing battle, but I said I was going to do this and here it is.

    Before you vote for Delobel and Schoenfelder, I would ask you to watch this little montage I threw together of some of their four earliest programs. (sorry about the sound level differences)

    Most people remember their stuff from "Frida" on, but I wanted to show you that the TES stuff that D&W and V&M do so brilliantly now?... DelSchoes were helping create back in the late 90s and early 2000s when the ISU started introducing elements into the FD, and they did it with programs that were packed with choreography and transitions. The contributions to the evolution of the sport in terms of lifts and some of the early twizzle variations they created under 6.0 that many CoP elements now are based on should get them more consideration.

    Yes, they were a bit wild and unfinished, but so were D&W when they were starting out (and still are) and they were allowed to just jump right up the rankings with programs mostly skated in hand to hand position while D&S languished outside the top ten behind teams like Grushina, Nowak, Chait, Lang, etc. If D&W deserved the 10.00s for the CH/TR/IN for their SD this year, then D&S should have been getting 6.0s. (Not that I'm saying they should have, it's just obvious that D&W get some insanely generous marks so you can't really compare)

    D&S have incredible power, big edges, a longer portfolio and greater variety of programs than almost anyone on the list, more original and challenging choreography and transitions unique to each program every season, and even came up with a completely new never before seen move. If they were North American, that move would have it's own nick name and a Tumblr page dedicated to gifs of them performing it.

    Davis and White, who are probably going to cream them in the voting, did essentially the same FD choreography to different music for the first 4 years of their senior career. They had *one* unique and original move in all those years, and it was that sweeping dip move at the opening of Samson and Delilah. Their tango FD was their first truly fully choreographed program of their senior career, and that was all Shpilband. They had one great OD/SD in 2010 and the rest have ranged from passable (last year's SD) to "Seriously?" (This year's SD) in terms of capturing the rhythm and choreography of the required theme. Also, compare their Rumba compulsory this year to Delobel and Schoenfelder's and you'll see (hopefully) that there is no comparison.

    If you don't want to vote D&W, consider N&K.

    Navka and Kostomorov were a quality team that had a series of fabulous ODs from 2003-2005. But they also had mostly unremarkable and generic FDs , and their Olympic FD has to be the most generic Olympic FD since Linichuk's in 1980. On top of that, they didn't even perform either of their 2005 worlds or 2006 Olympics programs particularly well, *and on top of that*, their lifts those two seasons were the ugly CoP "point whore" style lifts that had a catch foot position for almost every lift. In fact the whole Olympic podium was like that. :rolleyes: It was frustrating to see D&S really push themselves on the lifts and get nothing for it.

    Roman Kostomorv looked nowhere over his feet in either 2005 worlds FD and both 2006 Olympic's OD and FD. Their FD performances were particular on the "verge of disaster" side for him both years. He almost brought her down on the dual cantilever move at the end of the Olympic FD. If I had never seen him skate well before, I would assume he was the most overrated male skater of all time.

    Most of the argument for N&K would come from their medal count, but they really weren't that dominant in terms of the actual skating.

    In conclusion, when it comes down to it...
    Does anyone really believe that Delobel and Scheonfelder should have been behind Grushina and Goncharov in Torino in 2006?
    Does anyone really believe they skated a worse compulsory dance than B&A there too?
    Does anyone really believe they should have been off the podium in the 2005 worlds behind G&G?
    Does anyone really believe that DomShabs OD at the 2010 Olympics was superior to DelSchoe?

    I guess there are people that do feel that WAY, and I already know of one poster who will say they do :p, but IMO they really should be at least Olympic bronze medalists, and have at least two other world medals from 2005 and 2007. I'm fine with them coming up short at 2006 worlds becuase they didn't skate the FD that well and made several TES errors.

    Unfortunately, most people will associate them with 2008 worlds, which they won in a walk becuase of bad luck to their competitors, and did it with their most conservative skate of their careers to a FD that they never really got developed to it's potential. Even their CD skate was conservative. Because of all that, their win was really bittersweet and why I watch that performance the least of all their world performances. I hate that it overshadows the rest of their career.

    Honestly, I left a whole bunch of stuff out and could go on for pages and post dozens of more links (The compulsories!:swoon:) but I'll let it go there.... for now.

    So thank you for reading, and now you can continue voting Delobel and Schoenfelder out. :(
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2012
    nuge and (deleted member) like this.
  13. SamuraiK

    SamuraiK Well-Known Member

    Yes, DelSchoes were robbed more than enough times but NEVER from a big title, only for silver/bronze medals. We can make a case about 2008 Euros but this game is for world/olympic champions and they are outclassed by all the others still here in that aspect.
  14. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    10.00s for D&W's "Latin" SD. That's my answer to that. :p

    In all seriousness, I think a *case*, at the very least, could be made for gold in 2005 and 2006.

    N&K skated great in the CD and superbly in the OD in 2005, but the FD was forced and awkward both technically and stylistically, and I really felt DelSchoes not just beat them in that portion, but crushed them. That FD had the TES stuff totally clean and strong, but also the polish and finish that was supposedly holding them back previously.

    The Olympics in 06 should have come down to DelSchoe vs DenSta IMO. The idea that missing a position in a dance spin somehow outweighed everything else DenSta did on the TES and PCS over the whole event to put them behind G&G is ludicrous. N&K skated a strong CD, but the OD and especially the FD were just not there for Roman, and I would have had them 3rd.

    But yes, I accept that I am definitely in the minority on this stuff, but I only feel stronger about it the more time goes on.
  15. Marta24

    Marta24 Well-Known Member

    I am totally with you and I think they are one of the most artistic ice dance couples. I think only P/B can challenge them in this point. Don't get me wrong V/M and D/W are technically brillant, but I just don't consider them to be artistic skaters. But this is all my opinion and I know that a lot of people have different opinions, especially about V/M.

    I voted for D/W by the way, I keep watching their programms in order to see what people find so great about them, but I just don't get it.
  16. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

    I totally agree.

    Delchoes are one of my all time favorites. Although I don't think they were the best, but should be considered much better than zzzzzzzzzzz Davis & White.
  17. Plusdinfo

    Plusdinfo Active Member

    I agree that Delobel/Schoenfelder and Denkova/Staviski are much more artistic than Navka/Kostomarov, whom I voted for this round. Yes, technique is part of the sport, but when I sense a bigger artistic gap between teams than a technical one, I hope for a better result for the more artistic team (not to mention the fact that all judging of modern ice dancing involves personal preference). I'm also with those who wonder why Davis/White are consistently considered phenomenal. I appreciate and enjoy certain performances (i.e. 2010 SD and 2012 FD), but I generally find their musicality relatively poor.
  18. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

    Still think that Navka and Kostomarov shouldn't be going out. They should at least outlast Davis and White and Delobel and Schoenfelder.
    And for those who say that they shouldn't have won in 2004, consider how innovative their free dance was compared to Denkova and Staviski's. The Austin Powers never fails to make me smile. Also, Navka's leg line and overall aesthetic was really well used in their programs unlike Denkova and Staviski who didn't really start to bloom until they went to Linichuk who gave them better lifts and technique.
    Anyway, Navka and Kostomarov's Carmen FD was still very intricate and if you look at Compulsory + OD + FD, they definitely deserved their win. Although Delobel and Schoenfelder had a better free dance, their god awful OD and weaker compulsories (as compared to Navka and Kostomarov) didn't deserve to be on the top of the podium.
  19. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    My vote goes to Davis and White. They are very dynamique, but they are not exactly pure ice dancers.
  20. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

    I agree. They are amazing athletes, but not dancers.
  21. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

    Yes it is ice dancing but its also a sport. Athleticism counts for a lot in my book.
  22. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

    So surprised to see so many votes on Delobel and Schoenfelder. Sure, their last run in the competitions were rather disappointing and they could have been placed higher in Vancouver had they not been forced to stop due to Delobel's pregnancy. But their pure technique was none I've seen of ice dancers and they are so so unique!
  23. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Of course, but others on the list have athleticism and pure technique. ;)
  24. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    What is the first program? it looks interesting. :)

    :rofl: Very true (not that I don't lurve the V&M tumblrs).

    You succeeded in getting my vote for D&W (I voted Delschoes last round). I think N&K should go after those two.

    I'm still sad about L&A getting voted out early, so I understand. :(
  25. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    Here's the full FD. It's from the 99/2000 season.

    Yay! Keep voting people! Just not for DelSchoes!
  26. RumbleFish

    RumbleFish New Member

    OMG, that was wonderful.
    Ice dance couples, who are having hard time finding right programs, a la Shibs, should really look at this clip IMO.

    BTW, what the heck with TAT sitting in the kiss-and-cry? I had no idea that she has coached Delchoes.
  27. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    From 99-2002 I believe.

    I've heard it was a very difficult time for D&S from people in the know, but never heard much details other than Tat/Morozov were not a positive influence on Delobel and post 2002 they were trying to get Olivier to skate with Shae-Lynn Bourne. :confused: But again this is all bits and pieces of info and hearsay. I think MarieM knows more about it.

    If anyone cares here are the other FDs from 99-2003 that I put in the clip.

    Vivre Pour Le Meilleur -2001
    Songs from the Victorious City -2002
    Mythdoea - 2003

    For the 2002 Olympics, they actually dropped the Victorious City FD and brought back Vivre Pour Le Meileur becuase it felt more Olympic in nature, and were actually skating it brilliantly until a difficult lift were Isabel jumps and rotates into Olivier's arms, where he accidentally hit her blade with his hand and down they went. He actually skated the rest of the program with a gash in his hand. :wuzrobbed
    mazzy and (deleted member) like this.
  28. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    This is fantastic, as well.
  29. zotza

    zotza allergic to brainless skaters

    I voted for Delobel/Schoenfelder and I honestly can't believe how some people still believe that N/K were so undeserving champions.It's like revisiting 2004 FSU all over again and I really don't want to jump into the bandwagon..I will defend these two until the end...

    Now, on why I voted for Delobel/Schoenfelder...I felt nothing when they skated.Absolutely nothing.I haven't voted for them up to now because I respect their technical proficiency in some aspects but for me they were trying so hard to be different,innovative that most of the times they didn't even let their qualities shine.And in my opinion always,they were completely mismatched.I have heard people finding them boring as well,and honestly they've been my bathroom break more than once.

    But we all know,that in the end it will be G/P,K/O,A/P and probably V/M. So I guess that we shouldn't compare pre COP ice dancing with what we have now cause the latter will always lose.
  30. shady82

    shady82 Active Member

    I loved Delobel/Schoenfelder's early work. Their 2000-2002 FDs and 2002 OD were all kickass. If they skated Songs from the Victorious City cleanly, they could have challenged Denkova/Staviski and Winkler/Lohse at the Olympics during the FD, as their marks weren't far off C/S's at Skate Canada that year.

    The problem with D/S is that during the years they were medal contenders (2005-2008), they usually didn't pull off a good three rounds of dances (CD, OD, FD) to get the top spot. They had the best FD in 2005, hands-down. Frida was the most difficult technical program, and it was sophisticated and moving. But their CD and OD, while not bad, were not top 3 material. They definitely should have medaled in 2005, though not the gold. I didn't care for Carnival in 2006 at all - the costumes at Torino absolutely did not work. I think they should have medaled in 2007 as well.

    As for 2008, they were lucky that year that B/A fell in the CD and DomShabs weren't competing. I wasn't a fan of either of their programs that year, and IMO B/A had the best programs that year.

    I acknowledge Delobel/Schoenfelder's influence in their early material, which was always great to watch. They also had some of the best, most influential FDs of the decade, especially Frida. But in general, they were not good enough for the No. 1 spot. I hate to vote them out first, but I think it's accurate. It was between D/S and D/W.