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Father Pickets School Over His Son's "Bullying"

Discussion in 'Off The Beaten Track' started by AragornElessar, Oct 11, 2012.

  1. Karina1974

    Karina1974 Well-Known Member

    ^^^From what I read, she didn't put up the picture of herself. Some stranger she met online talked her into flashing her breasts, & he took the picture.


    But you are right... Putting herself in that position wasn't smart, regardless.
  2. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

  3. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

    This is clearly not the case here, and even if it were I don't see how this makes any difference frankly.

    Everything that I've read points to Amanda Todd being a very emotionally fragile girl. She was 12 when she came across a online pedophile/predator who encouraged her to take her clothes off. It's sick and disgusting and whether she put the pictures out herself is irrelevant because she was 12! On what planet do we point the finger at a 12 year old and start referring to her as a "victim" as opposed to what she actually is/was...a VICTIM. :rolleyes:
  4. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

    Except the internet wasn't even available commercially until the mid-90s and it wasn't much back then and hardly anyone was on it. The dot.com boom was around 2000-2004 and it's now 2012.

    Which means the oldest people who "grew up with the net" could be isn't very old at all. It's my kids' generation -- people who are now, at their oldest, in their mid-20s but most are still in High School.

    So to say they "dropped the ball" is to blame kids who haven't had a chance yet to see all the consequences of their actions.

    I watch those shows constantly and they are very popular so I don't know what you mean by "does anyone watch those shows any more" because clearly many people do. Because I actually watch them, I can tell you that your characterization of them as celebrating victimhood is very off-base. What those shows provide people (and probably why they are so popular) is vindication because the bad guys always get theirs. Unlike in real life where the victims often get no satisfaction and the perpetrators are sometimes celebrated and often allowed to get away with it and have their actions excused.

    So it's the opposite of what you are saying IMO.

    Except I never said that!

    I said that pictures taken *surreptitiously* and without knowledge of the subject are not the issue. (I didn't say it, but I suspect the reason is that they aren't salacious enough.) And in this case the pictures were taken with Amanda's knowledge. But not that it's always a person taking pictures of themselves and posting them because that is not what happened here and there are plenty of cases where people allow pictures of themselves to be taken and it comes back to haunt them.

    I was arguing against the idea that you have no protection from this sort of thing so why bother even trying to behave sensibly.

    You mean back to the days like when I was a kid in the 60s and got bullied every ****ing day in school and even had a teacher participate in one of the incidents? And had the principle do nothing about him and had no recourse because no one sued for stuff like this back then or picketed their school board?

    This idea that all our problems stem from lack of discipline like back in the "good" old days would laughable if it wasn't so damaging.
    skatemomaz and (deleted member) like this.
  5. PeterG

    PeterG Well-Known Member

    B.C. teen's suicide nets hundreds of tips to police

    Maple Ridge is where I grew up and where I am now living again. Sometimes there are letters in the newspaper about this being an idyllic community (usually someone squawking about the homeless, etc.) and I think, "just because you had it good doesn't mean it's an ideal community". I know otherwise.

    ETA: Originally I was going to say here is that now the abuse is even worse that someone has killed themself. But I'm remembering that two guys in my high school committed suicide a few years before they would have graduated. So maybe it's still as bad as it's ever been... :fragile:
  6. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    How about treating people with respect instead?

    And conducting school relationships so that students are subjects, taking responsibility for their own life with the help and guidance of teachers and not objects pushed around in an authoritarian fashion.

    The rigid, unforgiving discipline is the reason bullying exists in the first place. It's the same kind of uneven relationship conducted through the means of violence.
    skatemomaz and (deleted member) like this.
  7. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    It's sad that it had to come to suicide for this story to gain notoriety and traction and law enforcement to act.

    I understand death tends to amplify things, but I can't help but thinking that this is sort of sending a certain message for those who are contemplating suicide in their own desperate situations.
  8. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

    Respect is something one earns when one demonstrates it's entitled. Children who bully demonstrate they are neither giving respect nor entitled to it and that they don't respect any sort of authority because they don't fear it. That starts at home with parents who don't raise them to behave like human beings (indulgent, giving them things just to have them and not demonstrating they can take them away, not instilling respect for authority whether they LIKE that authority or not) and continues when schools CANNOT punish them. The only thing that ever made an impression on the kids at my school was that 1. teachers and the admin would always take my word for something, meaning if I said someone was bothering me, I'm the one telling the truth, and 2. when they tried to provoke a physical fight I refused to hit first not because I couldn't or wouldn't hurt them but because when they hit first, I was defending myself and not the instigator, plus see #1.

    Bullies do not respond to sensitivity training. They CLEARLY do not respect adult authority, and why should they? Their parents are going to refuse to believe the teachers. Hence, why should schools do anything? They already told the kids "bullying is bad", kids didn't listen, what discipline they're permitted doesn't work and isn't reinforced by the parents. The parents have to be on board with disciplining and all most do nowdays is explain how it's not little Timmy's fault he punched Bobby and stuffed Susie in a locker, he's ADD and it's not THEIR fault anyway, the teacher/para/aide/day-care worker/anyone besides them who has five minute's authority over their child should have done something.

    And giving a twelve-year-old a webcam and not making DAMN sure you know exactly what they're doing with it is negligent parenting. Not to mention who raises a child that thinks flashing someone on the internet is appropriate? Children behave as they're expected to behave by their parents. Expect them to behave responsibly, have real consequences that hurt (taking away things they value, limiting their privileges, SUPERVISING THEM) when they don't, and funnily enough they start meeting your expectations and behaving. It's really sad when the "you" in that statement is a non-parent doing it because the parents won't (why yes, that's the voice of experience), but it still works.

    Raising children is not a psych experiment in how to make everyone love each other (never happen) and discipline does not create bullies or make life unlivable. If it did, the problems wouldn't be worse now (when there basically IS no discipline because every child is a special snowflake.)
  9. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    So what you are saying is that fear and violence should be used as a means of conducting human relationships.

    Which makes is different from bullying how?

    Oh wait, this is exactly what bullying is.

    If you raise somebody that way, don't be surprised if they turn out to be a bully. It is what you have taught them.

    And no, respect isn't something you earn or have to become entitled to. It's something that every single human being deserves. If you don't treat somebody with respect, they will respond in kind. And then your self-fulfilling prophecy comes true ('I told you he was a bad kid').

    And as far as raising children goes, of course discipline is necessary but not because 'the child needs to know its place' but because it needs its carer to provide them with safety, security and predictability and then the child can internalise them and learn to discipline themselves. If you need to discipline somebody all the time, you've failed. Another thing that a child needs (and the most important by far) is unconditional love. Contrary to 'folk ideas' about too much of a good thing resulting in a spoiled child, it works exactly the opposite way. If all of the child's needs are met in the first several crucial years of life, then this gets internalised and the child believes that they are a good person and that they can expect good things from other people. And you end up with a mentally healthy, psychologically resilient human being who can take care of themselves. If that is lacking, then you end up as somebody who is unsure of themselves and other people. And if you (wrongly) expect somebody to have bad intentions toward you, you are going to strike first.

    And this is just one (parent vs. child relationship) of many factors, which contribute to bullying.

    The way schools are organised and the relationships there are conducted (the schools' organisational and institutional culture) is a massive factor as well. But I've already wrote about it in this thread. So read it. Schools tell kids "bullying is bad" but at the same time heavily promote competition, see beating others as the pinnacle of success and have teacher-student relationships that are very rarely built on mutual respect. Again: if you treat young people with no respect and regard them as "trouble", they will see that and "trouble" is exactly what they will give you. Psychology 101.

    Bullying itself is an 'acting out' kind of behaviour. So for the perpetrators it's a way of dealing with stress, a coping mechanism. Hardly the most constructive one :shuffle: but that's the function that it has. So the problem isn't that the perpetrators "don't have discipline". They have problems that they are unable to resolve otherwise and at the same time they are placed in an environment where bullying is encouraged (not directly of course but "between the lines").
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2012
  10. UGG

    UGG Well-Known Member

    Amanda was 12 when she flashed someone on her web cam. She was not a 35 year old woman. Yes she made the mistake but she was a CHILD. Please give me a break with all of this "she put it out there nonsense". Think of when you were that age. What a confusing time of life.

    I keep thinking of my son (who is 19 months). I think he is so perfect and wonderful. I am sure all of these parents of bullied kids think like I do-their kids are amazing. maybe that is why they cannot see what is happening? I dont get it...
    Badams and (deleted member) like this.
  11. Really

    Really I need a new title

    Yes, she put it out there. That's the point. The adults have to make sure the kids understand all the ramifications of such behaviour. Starting when they get their first cellphone isn't early enough. Do a search on "digital citizenship" and "online safety" and you'll find several sites that help parents and teachers talk to kids of all ages about how to be safe digitally. It is true that you can't do anything about people who take pictures of you, but you can take control of as much as possible, including setting up notifications of when you're tagged in photos or comments or anything on Facebook. Of course, it takes time to sift through things and make the appropriate changes, but it's necessary. And it's especially necessary if you're a parent whose child uses the Internet.
  12. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

    It bugs me that people blame the parents. Does any parent watch every single move/ decision their child makes every minute of every day? Does every single mistake their child makes get called out? I got caught doing some stupid things and got disciplined but my parents found out maybe 10% of the things I actually did.

    I didn't bully anyone (I was the one bullied) but I was naive and made plenty of stupid decisions. I was lucky that nothing extremely awful happened to me but I could have just as easily have been a statistic too. I lived through the Kristen French/ Leslie Mahaffy murders (close to the area they were killed) but I stilled wondered the street at 2 am. Looking back, I was such an idiot.

    Kids screw up, they make mistakes. The predator with the photo and the kids who tormented Amanda Todd contributed to her death.

    Pointing fingers will not change bullying unless all levels work together to stop bullycide. Victims, victims parents/ friends, bullying bystanders, bullies, schools, bullies parents etc and law changes will help but it all starts with 1 person calling out bullshit when they see it.

    I hope laws change. I hope the torturers get caught and brought to justice. I hope all the kids who have to deal with this don't feel the desperation that kids like Amanda felt so they ultimately kill themselves.
  13. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  14. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

    The parents of the bullies too. They can't believe their kids are doing anything that any other kid would do even though plenty of kids don't bully because their kids are good kids!!
  15. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Yes she put it out there. However, does that excuse or even explain the way she's been tormented by her mistake (as a 12 year-old)? Geez, I wish people would realize that it's not the victim that needs to learn self-control (because I'm sure she learned her lesson when that picture just wouldn't go away) but those who take so much glee in ostracizing the poor kid and do their damn best to make sure she'll never live down her mistake to the point where she no longer wants to live.

    I mean short of making sure NOBODY makes a mistake ever in their lives, not sure what else can be done with some people's thinking.
  16. susan6

    susan6 Well-Known Member

    This is who I want to hear from....parents of bullies. There are a lot of conflicting ideas about what kind of upbringing/character development results in bullying behavior. The big theory used to be low self-esteem + being abused at home = bully; the student acts out at school because that's what he/she learned at home and it makes him/her feel better. Nowadays that theory seems to be out of fashion; testing on bullies indicates they actually have overly high self-esteem and are manipulative (able to manipulate parents and teachers into looking the other way). It seems sort of like sociopathy-lite.

    So....given how many people on this board have been bullied and how prevalent bullying is.....someone here has probably raised a bully (or perhaps was raised as a bully or with a bullying sibling). How? Was it over-discipline, or lack of discipline? Low self-esteem, or high?
  17. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

    I recall an incident in Canada a couple years ago where some teens threw a party with a parent present, raped one of the girls after she was intoxicated, videotaped it, then distributed it around the school to mock the victim.

    There are entire websites devoted to uploading surreptitious photos/videos of people either undressed or engaged in sexual activity. Secret cameras get placed in dressing rooms or bathrooms. There's an entire body of law designed to address this phenomenon, so I don't know why anyone would say this doesn't happen :confused:.
  18. susan6

    susan6 Well-Known Member

    Man's inhumanity to man continues to astound. I mean....that's insult added to injury with a huge dollop of stupidity on top (filming yourself committing a felony, and distributing it?). Please tell me somebody went to jail.

    The longer I live, the more I hate people.
  19. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

    I don't know what the outcome of that case was--perhaps some of the Canadian posters know. I do remember that the mom served the alcohol, so there were potential charges against her. Iirc, many were blaming the girl for getting drunk in the first place, so she should have anticipated having a train pulled on her.
  20. TheGirlCanSkate

    TheGirlCanSkate Well-Known Member

    From one (past)bully:

    I had my first blood drawing fight on the bus when in 7th or 8th grade one girl was tormenting a girl who could not stick up for herself. When I entered verbally, she pushed me. I smacked her and her giant hoop earring got caught on my hand and ripped out and we went to blows until I was pulled off of her. I told the principal I would have that fight all over again and I had no regrets.

    Before this, in 6th grade I was in the A crowd and one girl - Jenny - was on the outs. So one day she was a bff in my circle and the next, she was bullied badly. Yes, I joined in. It was kind of a heady experience. Going from teacher's pet to mean girl was a very powerful feeling.

    Our teacher heard of an ambush and drove all the alleys looking for us. She found us circling Jenny - I don't think it would have come to blows but we were vicious verbally. The teacher (a tiny woman) confronted us and laid into us and I was so ashamed. At that point I didn't want to be part of the A group and changed my schedule. I dropped study hall and became a student mentor in the disabled class for grades 1,2 and 3. I became friends with different people.

    I guess that shame and guilt worked differently in me and I after being a bully I moved to stepping in front of victims. I was part of a social organization that promoted change during high school, got to be a peer player (instead of taking regular PE, I took PE with differently-abled kids).

    I STILL feel guilty for participating in bullying Jenny. But, I've tried to be a better person for it.
  21. Scrufflet

    Scrufflet Well-Known Member

    Good on you for owning up and good on that teacher. We need so much more of this.
  22. DAngel

    DAngel Well-Known Member

    With cameras being so small nowadays, how do we protect ourselves from something like that? :scream:
  23. agalisgv

    agalisgv Well-Known Member

    You can't
  24. DAngel

    DAngel Well-Known Member

  25. Scrufflet

    Scrufflet Well-Known Member

    Susan, you raise some really good questions. So much of what happens is outside parental influence.

    Today I read an article by a teacher who was bullied as a youngster. She calls her students on it when she sees it and then tells them her own story of what happened and how she felt. What really struck her about their response was that they were shocked at being labelled bullies! Not by what happened but being labelled! They did not see themselves doing anything wrong; they tried to justify it saying the victim deserved it and they had the right to enforce punishment! Now there's an "AHA" moment! I'm grateful that that school has this teacher. If I had a child, I'd want that teacher involved in my kids life.

    One of the most useful organizations I've heard of is the From Me To We movement started by the Kielburgers(sp). It gets young people to start thinking about others and taking action for the collective good. We need more of that!

    Aragorn Elessar, thanks for starting this discussion. It is so important.
  26. Castlerock

    Castlerock Member

    I believe a lot of it has to do with parenting. Like the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

    One of my sons classmates is a bully. He is very short and not very smart, so it seems like his way of diverting attention. He has been suspended and even had a restraining order against him from another student. And you know what the parents do............ laugh, blame the principal, say "our son would never do that", even let the kid skip school and get mad at the principal when they call home to find out where he is. I would almost think the parents are proud of it. The Dad seems like he would have been a bully in school. He brags about playing soccer and the only thing he does is go after guys' ankles to take them out of the game.

    I had a long talk with my son about bullying (as this boy has done a few minor things to my son). I told him to stand up for other kids when this boy is being bad, but he is hesitant to do so out of fear of retaliation on him. My son is on the smaller side and looks much younger than his age.

    The school system is slightly to blame as well. This kid hardly ever does homework, just wrote his name on his final exam, yet bragged about passing all his classes. My son works hard to make decent grades and this only goes to show him that you don't really need to do anything and you can still pass (his thoughts). I think the teachers just want these kids to move on and not have to deal with them.
  27. DAngel

    DAngel Well-Known Member

    So there is only one bully tormenting many? Is there a way to get the children he had targeted to band together and stand up against him?
  28. Twilight1

    Twilight1 Well-Known Member

    My oldest son was telling us at dinner that one of his classmates targets him and tries to spit at him. He has been caught on 3-4 occasions by a teacher and about another dozen times by fellow students. I have to go to physio tomorrow which happens to right by the school to confront the principal about this.

    Spitting on someone is absolutely disgusting and I am not cool with this.
  29. PDilemma

    PDilemma Well-Known Member

    How do you know the kid is really passing? Have you seen his grades and transcripts? If this is high school, the kid can appear to move on even though he has not actually passed previous coursework and in the end very well may not graduate.

    We had a kid once upon a time in my teaching career that bragged to his classmates about doing nothing and passing, too. But he wasn't passing. He wasn't retaking classes he hadn't passed because the parents refused to have them on his schedule lest he be embarrassed. He was registered for some summer school and some online coursework to make things up and still did not pass.

    When graduation time came around, his classmates were shocked and screaming injustice when they learned he wasn't graduating (he was not a bully--he was quite well liked by a segment of the small class). One girl cried to me that it was so awful because "no one ever told him he was behind in credits". Of course, he had been told. His parents had been told. There had been meetings with teachers, admins, guidance counselor. Nothing truly got their attention.
  30. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Just out of curiosity, do you think he lied to the girl that no one had told him he was behind? He truly believed no one had told him because it really didn't register with him? He never said anything one way or the other to the girl about being informed and she just assumed?