Fatal Impact: The effect of windmills on birds and bats

Asli

Well-Known Member
Messages
13,465
Let me spell it out for you, please. This issue is about the survival of civilization and quite possibly the human race, or life on the Earth in general.

Thank you Andrey. This is what I wanted to say when I saw this thread, but this subject leaves me wordless with rage and frustration. We (humans) are like a family sitting in a house on fire, with the doors locked and the windows blocked, and we are discussing whether the water bill for putting off the fire will be within next month's budget. That's how damn stupid we are.
 

overedge

Mayor of Carrot City
Messages
35,799
Can't one switch to renewable energy without asking taxpayers to fund multi-million dollar boondoggles?

"Boondoggle" is a very subjective judgement. There is no way to know with a lot of investments whether something will turn out to be a good idea. There are plenty of government investments in things that aren't alternative energy that end up wasting way more money, but I don't see you picking on those.

Another way to look at it is that government is supporting technologies that could ultimately benefit the environment and society, without putting the entire financial burden of research and development on an individual company.
 

Aussie Willy

Hates both vegemite and peanut butter
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27,871
Coal is our major energy source here in Victoria, Australia. As more people turn to solar, the coal based electricity providers complain that it is becoming less profitable to the point that one of the major power stations has now closed down. But our government is really doing nothing to plan for the future. I think if the solar industry can become more efficient and batteries more affordable, then the government should be supporting these industries. Instead our federal government is doing is best to cut back on renewable funding and support. Last year one state had a major blackout because a storm knocked over the major transmission lines from Victoria to South Australia. But because the renewables didn't tack up the slack, it was all the renewables fault that the power was out.
 

LilJen

Reaching out with my hand sensitively
Messages
13,111
Solar is becoming increasingly popular in Australia. I have a solar hot water system which has a gas booster. So in summer my gas usage works out to about $5 (excluding supply charges). But then I have gas heating which costs a lot in winter.

My dad has solar panels on his roof and they have literally saved thousands on their power bills. In fact they got a refund from the electricity company because while they are still making regular payments, they have overpaid and are about $700 in credit. He lives in Mildura which is extremely hot in summer.

If I built a place, I would get solar panels and have a battery system to save it. Technology is developing in this area and getting more effective and cheaper all the time.
Awesome for your dad. Alas, in many areas in the US, power companies are fighting against homeowners becoming self-sufficient in energy. . . because it reduces the power companies' profits. Poor, poor power companies.

dh has been salivating over an electric car for years, but there's no point currently; where we live, most electricity STILL comes from coal! And we don't plan to stay here for more than another 3-4 years.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
Messages
8,150
Why isn't the main issue of consideration for a topic like this the misuse & abuse of government funding by unethical businesses or improper business practices & not things like "boondoggle solar power"?

And if the concern is truly bird killings, then wind power is found toward the end of a list that has cats, skyscrapers, cars, radio & cellphone towers as the contributing factor to the number of birds killed. Windmills, like air strikes (planes) are millions of birds behind them at the other end of the spectrum. Although I certainly agree the wind industry is not exempt from it's fair share of criticism & must continue to find ways to reduce their carnage in this area & make improvements to their enterprise, people really need to get busy in these other areas if the actual goal is to save birds & not disparage alternate energy. This was another one of Trump's thoughtless bombastic talking points during the election.
“The wind kills all your birds. All your birds, killed. You know, the environmentalists never talk about that.”
Why join him in such a discussion? A great many people who support environmental causes are bird lovers. I'd guess most of them have certainly been willing to look at the details of the bird issue, pursue steps to promote healthy bird populations & discuss it a lot more objectively than he does with his ignorant rhetoric.
 
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MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
58,289
No, it is just the facts.
It's not "facts" in the articles I've read. It's all one-sided fear-mongering. They talk about the batteries in electric cars as if gas cars don't have batteries and are made out of 100% biodegradable parts. They fear-monger about "dirty electricity" without giving any information about what states this is an issue for (giving the impression it's the majority).

It reminds me of the literature donated to public schools to teach about renewable energy that is produced by coal and oil companies and contains inaccuracies and outright lies.
 

DORISPULASKI

Watching submarine races
Messages
13,902
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I was not complaining about the batteries, but about the source of the electricity used to charge the batteries. In some states, you still have some really foul coal burning power plants, and Trump has cancelled, or has attempted to cancel attempts to improve the emission control requirements for them.

https://www.fastcompany.com/3017141...s-generate-more-pollution-than-most-countries

If you want do something about the United States’ contribution to climate change, you can’t ignore the power sector: 6,000 plants produce 41% of carbon dioxide emissions in the country. But, most of all, you can’t ignore the most polluting plants: the 50 dirtiest produce 2% of all energy-related emissions worldwide, or more than the total output of all but six countries. This select group of power plants bears greater responsibility for climate change than major nations like South Korea and Canada.


As part of the roll-back, Trump initiated a review of the Clean Power Plan, which restricts greenhouse gas emissions at coal-fired power plants. The regulation, which was the former president's signature effort to curb carbon emissions, has been the subject of long-running legal challenges by Republican-led states and those who profit from burning oil, coal and natural gas.

http://www.elp.com/articles/2017/03/trump-to-gut-power-plant-emission-regulations.html

In those states/areas of the grid, more requirements for electricity keep those plants rolling.


In New England, we currently rely mostly on Canadian hydro and natural gas ( not entirely a plus when you consider fracking and methane leakage especially from our more aged sections of gas piping), but an electric car is probably still a net plus for the environment here.
http://www.theenergycollective.com/...atural-gas-along-hydroelectric-imports-canada

With the deletion of the data from the government's website, it is harder to get current date btw.
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
Messages
58,289
I was not complaining about the batteries,
I said I was talking about these articles I read that try to convince you that alternate energy sources and things like electric cars aren't any better than gas cars.

And people in those articles do complain about the batteries. IMO, it's a straw man argument.

Plus the articles pretend to be about informing you but they aren't informative.
 

Artistic Skaters

Drawing Figures
Messages
8,150
The point of contention is with expecting us to provide informative & analytical observations when the original suggestion for the topic was to encourage everyone to demonize celebrities for insufficient investment in windfarms. Now you tell us you want to have an actual discussion about environmental issues. :lol:

I don't know celebrity investment details, however we certainly have enough evidence to indicate there was an insufficient investment in alternative energy from much more than a financial standpoint by the U.S. Jimmy Carter had solar panels on the White House in 1980 & Ronald Reagan removed them, & it's been downhill ever since. All that crying during our recent election about the good paying manufacturing jobs going overseas, but the U.S. with their loud & clear dirty energy policies sent the alternative energy industry packing for faraway lands way back when. Now we get solar panels made in Germany, Japan & China, & wind turbines from Denmark, when they could have carried the MADE IN THE U.S.A. label starting almost 40 years ago.

People all over the world have good cause to be upset with our wasteful use of resources in the U.S. considering our uninspired approach to addressing global warming & the selfishness of our U.S. lawmakers. Hopefully they're mad at China too, but it's not saying much for us that we're down in the gutter with them when we could have been a leader in this area.
 
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ballettmaus

Well-Known Member
Messages
18,646
^It's not all bad or, phrased differently, other countries have their own skeletons. Hybrid cars are so much more expensive in Germany than they are in the US. Considering that they're really convenient for big cities and Germany is a lot smaller thus, people cover smaller distances, Germany should be full of them and other non-gasoline-powered cars. But, of course, the oil countries don't want that. I'm pretty sure the auto industry or even the government made some backroom deal, keeping the prices high on "alternative" cars.
 

Jot the Dot Dot

Headstrong Buzzard
Messages
4,447
"Boondoggle" is a very subjective judgement. There is no way to know with a lot of investments whether something will turn out to be a good idea. There are plenty of government investments in things that aren't alternative energy that end up wasting way more money, but I don't see you picking on those.
I have always said that all corporate welfare should be phased out and end, I thought me being a self-professed libertarian would spell that out. This was one particular instance where the entire project was a waste of taxpayers money.
As for something helping the environment, here is an example of something that can be privately financed, and can actually be installed within cities: http://mashable.com/2017/03/23/nature-inspired-wind-turbine-tree
 

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