Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by sk9tingfan, Aug 10, 2012.
..... so long all knees are safe and sound
And now you know how I felt when Plushenko announced his return.
Evan for Sochi Gold!
Hear, from who? where? what exactly?
Do you mean that U.S. judges and TPTB have already made up their minds who will win gold at Nats in 2013?
Does Johnny stand a chance against Evan, then, or Jeremy stand a chance against Johnny? What about Rippon, Dornbush, Miner, et al, ... are they simply out of the picture fighting for bronze and platinum and staying home?
But ..., I thought 2012 was supposed to be the bloodbath. I didn't see too much blood tho', just a honey badger, a neat ponytail doing some minor damage, lots of cool eyebrows, hair, and fun costumes, with Jonathan Cassar standing out with superb artistry and unmatchable spreadeagles. Oh, and Dornbush unfortunately hitting the ice "like it insulted his mother," Miner & Armin M battling for third spot, and Rippon & Abbott skating with great conviction/ determination, achieving redemption. Yeah sure, there will likely be a battle royal, if not blood at 2013 Nats men's event.
Mmmm, ahem, ya don't say. Well based on your stated location, your preference is not too surprising I suppose ...
Evan is gonna win everything! He will even win Canadian Nats! He's just that good
More on point. I don't think there's been a Worlds team with Evan (and/or Johnny) that hasn't kept/won 3 spots, right?
I didn't know Evan was competing with the Canadian ladies?!
Thank you! (And, yes, that does ring a bell.)
If anyone else can point to an instance in the 2009-10 season where his triple axel should have been marked as underroated but wasn't, I would dearly love to hear about it.
My impression, which may be incorrect, is that Lysacek and Carroll worked very hard that season to fix the underrotation problem on the triple axel and succeeded but that posters here on FSU never noticed (or paid attention).
^^ Well, good job by Carroll and Lysacek, then. At least Evan improved that dang 3-axel enough to land it and make the judges give him a pass on his poor take-off technique.
FS has just got so much drama and stuff to analyze, debate, and over-analyze that some stuff just gets not noticed.
Stuff like skating, for example.
^^ Yeah, actual performances, natch, especially under IJS/ CoP (that is, unless the performances happen to be by Dai and Jeremy)! For some fans tho', it just seems to be more fun to over-analyze protocols and dish over opposing faves, and agonize (for non-fans of PC that is) over Chan's ginormous, unbeatable skating skills, audience's boos, Evan's former agent's boo-boo, and ISU judges' stubborn insistence on rewarding falls with a gold medal... Ah well, new season a-coming.
Hang on, it's bound to be a bumpy ride to Sochi!
US nationals SP
Remember last year's Nationals was more supposed to be a bloodbath when it was thought Evan was competing, until such time as Evan dramatically falls short, that effectively leaves everyone else in the country competing for one Worlds berth. You don't need any particular s to realize there's no way the USFSA won't hold Evan up in the top two if they can at all manage it-they'd like to see him win gold, but even Johnny or especially Jeremy genuinely outskates him enough they might concede that. Which of them goes with him to Worlds, if it's not someone else all together, is harder to determine, though we might have a better idea by Nationals.
I suppose he may genuinely be our best chance at getting three spots back, but if he gets a berth under suspicious circumstances, he'd better pull that off.
^^ Great points, but I was responding to johndockley's comment, "From what I hear..." I simply wondered from where, who and what he'd heard exactly. I suppose all is forgiven between USFSA and Evan, and apparently USFSA and Johnny. But yes definitely, Evan being returning OGM (and the former fed favorite) gives him the edge, along with his solid competitive reputation. However IMO, Evan's competitiveness was often enhanced by his fed favorite status.
Still, there's no doubt Evan always works hard and has always been determined to exceed any perceived or imagined shortcomings vs his competitors. In the days of yore, I would probably be solidly behind Evan and not put off by what I perceive in him as a lack of personal authenticity and trying too hard. The fact is today there are so many great competitors and so much depth domestically and internationally, and a global fan base exists for all skaters regardless of country origin. Among U.S. skaters, while I liked Evan when I first saw him skate, for me he hasn't developed in a way that I find all that interesting or engaging. I would say the same about Brandon Mroz (and I feel this way about both despite their vastly different records of achievement).
Bottom line, of course, Evan gets the job done and he's an attractive, pleasant and talented young man. He just doesn't float my boat. Ha ha, maybe it's just that he gets my goat, and has done so once too often.
Well it's hard to say what Evan will do when we haven't seen him skate in a long time, but make no mistake he'll be right up there if he stays on both feet. And rightfully so! He is the best male skater the US has had since Brian Boitano.
I highly doubt Jeremy will be given one of the two spots unless there's absolutely no one else. His stock may have fallen in the eyes of the US judges, who knows... I can totally see him getting passed in favor of the other two veterans. Maybe next year if we get three spots...
Johnny, same with Lysacek, he's a proven and popular champion. Make no mistake the judges will make sure he's right up there contending for one of those two spots. Unless he gives them no other choice, the judges will turn a blind eye on a silly mistake or two.
I know he stunk up the place last year, but Richard Dornbush is the closest thing we have to the real deal (I'm talking about the new generation of course). I get the feeling that if he were to hit, the judges would throw themselves at him.
My prediction is that the US mixes it up by taking one veteran:
and one of the twinks
Sadly I don't think anyone else has a chance to make the world team.
THIS, This, and this. (especially#1-why others don't pick this up is beyond me)
I still love Brandon-and at least he's authentic and going after his stated goals
I must be odd- I don't find Evan at all attractive
Mainly- I just don't want to go through the next 2 years having Evan crammed down my throat as the most attractive, most manly, best role model, best skater evah!
Wah! Wah! Wah!
Deal with it!
Both Evan and Johnny are gonna' get most of the camera time! The camera loves them, and they love her back.
^^ (Re centerpt's comments): Ha ha, yes well, I guess I'm not alone in my assessment.
I do try to be fair. Evan is definitely not bad looking, especially when he doesn't try too hard with the hair gel, chin stubble and death glare. He is tall, dark, and if not exactly handsome in a conventional way, many find him cute (and some unbelievably perhaps "drop-dead gorgeous"). For me, it's Evan's whiny voice that is off-putting because it often betrays a subtle insecurity/ uncertainty/ lack of authenticity/ trying too hard bravado. Indeed that makes him human too, and perhaps would endear him as being sensitive and relatable, if he wasn't trying so hard to be faux macho.
I wonder why he can't just throw off the conventional constraints and make more of an effort to be himself. I guess that would be too hard and perhaps too much to ask since he's gone down the road he's chosen so far and has achieved the major success he dreamed of. I always thought he would have had more authentic success had he stayed with his former coach and taken on the challenge of exploring more of who he really is inside. What he presents to me is a just a glossy surface exterior and trying to say all the right things.
I find Carroll's oft-repeated Evan "football analogy" , and e.g., Evan's closing wink after the recently posted video interview with Nastia Liukin was just egregious, false and unnecessary. Probably his fans tho' found his exaggerated tacked on wink adorable and irresistible. Liukin and Evan do look good together standing side-by-side. They seem somehow made for each other, at least visually, superficially, on the surface.
I'm always interested in mainstream news coverage of figure skating and here are the articles I found for Lysacek's return (I already posted the link to Phil Hersh's Chicago Tribune article earlier in this thread):
NBC Today Show's blog (includes video of his Today Show appearance): He's back! Skater Evan Lysacek to return to competition, has 'Olympic bug'
Associated Press article (full or edited versions distributed online across the country in the Washington Post, Atlanta Journal-Constitution, Minneapolis Star Tribune & other local news sites):
Olympic champ Lysacek makes return official
Kent (Washington) Reporter article: Olympic champion Evan Lysacek to return to skating in Kent [at Skate America]
Fox News: http://www.foxnews.com/sports/2012/08/10/lysacek-to-return-for-upcoming-season/
E! News from London: http://www.eonline.com/news/336996/...ting-plans-to-compete-in-2014-winter-olympics
Well, dots, yes Johnny and Evan are the returning better known veterans who will receive the camera time. But I don't think centerpt was "wah wah" about that fact. It remains to be seen whether media and fed will actually lay off trying to pit Evan and Johnny against each other, which I think was a big mistake years ago. I just hope Evan and Johnny have gotten beyond falling prey to those machinations themselves.
I don't think there is any question that Johnny is the more authentic of the two and that Evan has in a sense felt the need to "try too hard" in order to compete with Johnny on and off the ice. Hopefully, as I said, they are now both mature enough and successful enough in their own rights that Evan can relax more and try to be himself and not an anti-Johnny/ macho Johnny. Mostly, I hope U.S. fed won't fall back into the old pattern of favoring one over the other. The question is: Is that too much to ask?
I have no problem with Evan getting camera time. He's the OGM, after all.
Re Brandon -- to me he seems like he's needs some loving hugs, and perhaps a wake-up call to find another coach, or at the least to branch out and get some supplementary help with expanding his self-awareness, and improving his presentation skills. Brandon may desire to be authentic, but I don't see him there yet at all. He seems somewhat confused about the equal importance of athleticism and artistry. Someone needs to tell him that being artistic and athletic is possible without sacrificing macho identity. He needs to maybe review Christopher Bowman's best performances, and also take a look at the up-and-coming evolving style of Richard Dornbush. Brandon, not unlike Evan needs to find out who he is inside before he can be true to himself on the ice.
I was just going to post in the U.S. Men's thread that the likelihood of a geriatric Worlds team comprised of a 28-year-old and a 27-year-old, or two 27-year-olds, is pretty low. I agree that one veteran and one young'un will most likely be the team, and that of the younger crowd, an on-point Dornbush probably has the greatest chance. If the USFS wants to send an old/young mix to Worlds, they could hardly do better than a Lysacek/Dornbush team to try to qualify three for Sochi.
I think it's obvious judging from all the fan polls that are littered in the Trash Can section that MANY people share your unfavorable assessments of Evan. Public opinion doesn't lie and many of the people who vote Lysacek as the first or second to be kicked out of polls are not just Plushenko fans. Many simply don't like his bland style of skating, personality, and the very visible deficiencies in his skating. It is what it is. Charisma, public appeal, and that "IT factor" comes naturally and can't be taught and when people see it as forced or fake, they'll call the person out on their transparency.
And you know this already in August without having seen any of the skaters or their programs in peak condition? Mmmkay then. I sincerely hope the judges won't be as biased as you are. If you want to turn the public away from skating forever, then the worst thing for the USFSA to do is to prejudge the competition. What would this be then . . . 1998 Olympic ice dancing all over again?
FSU opinion polls are not necessarily representative of all skating fans' sentiments/"public" opinion.
And I didn't read legjumper's post as "pre-judging" 2013 US Nationals. I just hope that the Senior men's event at Nationals is a fabulous competition with as many as possible bringing their 'A' game and is judged as fairly as possible.
I agree with most of what you say. But, with so many talented seniors, I don't think Joshua will figure into the mess ... this year anyway. Secondly, I have to wonder if Adam will get left in the dust. He just can't get the 3x and doesn't have a quad.
I think the 3 geriatrics will get menaced by Richard, Ross and Armin in that order. And I also think it's not guaranteed but quite possible 2 of the geriatrics can make the team
Except that unlike 1994 the past Olympic Champions could all skate their best and finish in the 4-7 range, in fact they would have to skate their best to even finish in that area probably.
Ricky, Ross, and Armin would not get the US 3 spots for Sochi. In any combination. Just... no. Talented tho they may be, they don't have the reputation needed yet to score well enough at Worlds.
Call them old men all you want, but any combination of Johnny/Evan/Jeremy would have a much better shot of doing so. Or a combo of the first set and the second set.
Exactly! You would think that 2011 Worlds would have proven that to everyone, but I guess not.