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Crone and Porier - 2010/11 :)

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by clarie, Nov 7, 2010.

  1. clarie

    clarie Well-Known Member

    This season, I believe, is a breakthrough season for this young team, with Scot and Tessa gone for most (if not all) of the season. I believe they have left their closest competitors slightly behind (Weaver and Poje, who I also like) but we'll know for sure after Skate America. I'm just a fan and not a skater or judge so I would like to hear what some of you have to say about their skating. I've heard complaints about Vanessa's posture, but couldn't detect anything negative at Skate Canada and watching on TV after. I really loved their costumes which suited the LP and looked crisp and clean and showed up very nicely on ice.

  2. L'amour

    L'amour New Member

    I fisr saw them last year during the grand prix season and I din't liked tehm at all, i don't no why, but later at the Oly they apeard to be another team for me.

    I really like their FD this season and their skating much more confident.
  3. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    I've liked them since their YoYo Ma FD (two seasons ago). I can still watch it over and over.
    Last season, I was not fond of their programs.
    But this season, I love their FD. I have the feeling that they find their own style. And what I particularly like is that it hides her flaws.
  4. pani

    pani Well-Known Member

    I think this team could be on podium at WCh this season. They have now third score from all competitiors. And they will improve there levels for some elements.
    Will see, what score they will have in USA
  5. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

    I love this team and the variety they have shown in their programs and their hard work and determination to keep improving and challenging themselves all the time.

    People are entitled to their opinions of course but I think the complaints about Vanessa's posture and lack of expression or too much expression or whatever else is supposedly wrong with her are overblown. Personally I am much more affected by the ease they have skating with each other after all these years and their genuineness.

    Last year in their OD at the Olympics they seemed intimidated and nervous and their skating was not what it could have been. But by the FD they looked much more comfortable and they seemed to have learned and grown from the whole experience. By Worlds they were rocking it!

    I am excited to watch this team over the upcoming years.
  6. Tak

    Tak Well-Known Member

    I like this team a lot. Something in their quirkiness appeals to me. Even though they are young - they have a distinctiveness that so many teams lack. I even liked their offbeat choreography and costumes last year [although I'm almost a minority of one on that]. They definitely need to work posture, stretch and line - more and better ballet for her! - but I think she has improved noticeably this season.

    Working with Christopher Dean will help them in so many ways - that dance is all about lines and angles - making her hold positions will definitely force her to concentrate on maintaining her lines. I expect them to improve a lot this season.

    Technically I think they are one of the best teams out there. They do some incredibly difficult stuff - they were doing difficult twizzle entries before they became mandatory. I certainly hope they continue working with Dean and/or other outside choreographers.

    I have great :respec: for them as skaters, partly for their ability, and partly because - like D/W in the US - they are not ballroom ice dancers but are pushing for something different. Which I like. But it's hard to do this in North America - which for some reason has been the last holdout for the ballroom style. If V/M skip this season, I think C/P have a strong chance to medal at Worlds.
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  7. dinakt

    dinakt Well-Known Member

    I don't know yet to what degree I like them- have to follow them more- but they are to be commended for trying to find their own style in an interesting way, through use of modern dance and unusual lines. I enjoy their FD quite a bit and it might be great with more mileage.
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Vanessa's posture is better but still weak for a team at this level.

    I think their FD is an absolutely stunning program. SD is ok, although not outstanding.

    I love their basic skating, it's so smooth and soft. :swoon:
  9. JasperBoy

    JasperBoy Aging in a great place

    I saw their FD at SC and was mesmerized. The choreography stood out by a mile. Although I have been somewhat indifferent to C&P in the past, this FD is a winner, and they interpret it with great style.
  10. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    I really loved all of the ODs and FDs they've done over the past three seasons. It's great that they're are getting more recognition now.

    I :swoon: last years FD so so much that the new one pales a bit in comparison, but it's still my favorite thing I've seen so far this season. I actually think their team could have done a better job of choreographing to that music than what Dean gave them, but whatever, it's a done deal.

    LOVE the SD too, minus that version of the song.
  11. mia joy

    mia joy Well-Known Member

    I never liked them, I must say, cause to me they always seemed just cold - in the typical Canadian dance team kind of cold. I actually never liked any Canadian ice dancers, I guess because they all always seem so stiff and out of emotion.
    This season's dances of C/P are like giving up on the coldness a bit and I guess I could even like their FD just as much as anyone, but there's one huge issue I have about it - I was already charmed by an Eleanor Rigby free dance, not so long ago ;) so there is no way I'm gonna love this one as much as that one. Will always have Meryl and Charlie in my head hearing this music, sorry :p so, as much as I see this FD is really good, it still bugs me a bit. And it still lacks emotion anyway.
  12. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

    I think I would like their FD better if the music was different. This version of ER just sounds dry. Doesn't bring out the emotion.

    mia joy, one Canadian ice dance team that was not stiff and emotionless was Bourne/Kraatz. I loved them for years, always interested to see what they would come up with next. Their soft knees and flowing style was evident the very first year they won Canadians...1993. It was harder for me to follow them back in the 90s without the internet and since I'm American, I could only see them at their international comps. I have enjoyed immensely being able to see their old programs now. Funny but the only recent Canadian team that I think had that B/K vibe was Hann-McCurdy/Coreno but they didn't have B/K's skating skills. Too bad. V/M are in a different category altogether to me. They are amazing in a completely different way from B/K.
  13. Bue

    Bue Active Member

    I loved their FD last season but this is a huge step up for them. Great call on working with Christopher Dean! It's a brilliant program, my favourite of the season so far, even if I think there are still some costuming and presentation issues (though not nearly as bad as previous years!) .

    I would love to hear who these "stiff and emotionless" Canadian dance teams are...
  14. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

    What's the deal with the blaring blue and red costumes? Are they meant to be patrio... oh wait, they are not even American or French. I don't get what the relatively abstract choreography has to do with the song Eleanor Rigby either --- at least it did not leave me with the sense of "loneliness."
    Last edited: Nov 8, 2010
  15. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Well, you probably don't know the Beatles discography. ;)
    Their best of was in 2 discs : The red one and the blue one

    About the choreography and the theme, I can't help you. I guess they decided to do something modern, new, without a real sense, just for the pleasure to feel the music. :confused:

    Does anyone know if there is a message in their choreography ?

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    There was an interview somewhere where they cited not the Red and Blue albums, but the British flag was the inspiration for the costumes. Some of the angular, diagonal, and triangular poses/lines is probably flag-emulative. If I had to guess what Dean was getting at. (presumably because the Beatles were British).

    I alternate about this team. I really, really like that they have determined to have their very own, distinctive style. I think that's the way to go about any artistic endeavor. It is not necessary for me to like their stuff to really respect what they are trying to do. OTOH, I really liked their YoYo Ma FD. I like this year's FD, but they still haven't showed it to us in its very best version, and I can't wait to see it! In one sense it's like last year's program. It is totally not about Eleanor Rigby or the Beatles, any more than Bohemian Rhapsody the music is about Orpheus, and really the choreo was bogus and not about Orpheus or Queen, or Bohemian Rhapsody either, in any discernible way for me. I really hated their Bohemian Rhapsody/Orpheus/WTF FD.

    I would be happier if they gave their FD's some abstract name. They could call this year's program A Study In Angles rather than Eleanor Rigby. It would be better without vocals, too, IMO. But it's really fine the way it is.

    It reminds me a bit not of the Duchesnay's Eleanor Rigby, but of their Reflections FD, which Dean also choreographed. I really liked Reflections.

    OTOH, I detested their non-Flamenco OD, found their Ragtime OD mildly annoying, and I can't stand the version of Fallin' in their SD, and the skating doesn't make it any better for me.
  17. semogal

    semogal Well-Known Member

    I am not in love with this team or their FD this season. I applaud them for going in a different direction than V/M but now they are compared to the Duchesnays (not sure I spelled that right, sorry). They need to find THEIR identity.

    As to costumes, they really didn't bother me until I saw the podium pictures from SC. It is extremely unflattering on her.
  18. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

    I don't get it. I appreciate Crone/Poirier well enough, but I don't get Dean's choreography. If the FD is meant to be a pure expression of the music without connection to the original song lyrics, why leave the lyrics in the FD rather than use an instrumental version? No offense to Beatles fans, but pop songs are not designed for musical intricacies and complexities. The material is pretty thin for abstract, modern, detailed dance interpretation, IMHO.

    I spotted quite a lot of modified Torvill/Dean signature moves in this FD. Modified but recognizable. To be completely honest (and blasphemous), I personally have not seen a substantial amount of progression or innovation in Chris Dean's choreography, musically or dance-wise, in the past 10 years. I admit that my eyes are pretty myopic, so I could be wrong.
  19. ~tapdancer~

    ~tapdancer~ Well-Known Member

    I would probably say, Jun Y, that I have not seen Dean's choreography change in closer to 20 years. I always recognize his style and his moves. In the 80s, T&D's style and moves were extremely innovative but now they are so recognizable (to some) that I, personally, don't find it innovative. I'm a huge T&D fan, I liked most everything they ever did. But for some reason, I don't care for his style on other skaters.
  20. jl22aries

    jl22aries Active Member

    Love the team. Great FD.
  21. Debrah

    Debrah Well-Known Member

    I adore this team because of their committment to their choreo and for mental toughness, doing it when it counts, as much as for upping their technical difficulty each and every season and changing things up by painting different pictures with their bodies and music choices.

    What I find so hard, is that people feel the need to protect old favored teams by always putting down new up and comer's, instead of just appreciating teams for what they are all doing right.

    Just for once it would be nice to say something positive about teams other than the one's whose bandwagon, you ride on. My mission that I set for myself every season is TO TRY AND FIND AT LEAST ONE THING I LIKE about every single dance team I see and not to just concentrate on the flaws.

    It's too easy, just to hate everyone other than your own fav, because one is worried they can be beat by some other team.

    Just because a team did well the previous season, does not automatically mean they should be stuck in that spot, that's how things used to be, but hopefully that mindset is no more; it's a new system, with new rules, and perhaps more knowledgeable judging practices are being used to determine results, and hopefully the fans are taking time to educate themselves too, it's not always what one personally like's, it's about the actual skating skills on display, a performance, athleticism and artistry, emotion all being married to music, costuming, and everything working to-gether in a seamless package.

    One has to understand perhaps other factors are always in play, maybe this season's programs are not as strong, as they were previous season, or team did not train as hard, or an injury happened alsong the line; whatever the reason, rank should not be set in stone, but allowed to change, even from one comp to next! Yes folks, even in same season, it should be possible now, for a dance team, to move a few spots up, or down, more like what happens in singles and pair skating; where one day, a low ranked skater, just has a great day and nothing goes wrong; the planets all align. Or, a top ranked skater just has a really really bad day at the office when even a world champ can tumble down from the podium step, then dust off and climb right back up the steps next time out. That's all I am trying to suggest.

    Can't we all just spread the love around a bit more, see what's good about a skater, team, what's the point of everyone showing up to do grand prix, if results are set in stone by where team finished at world's the previous season?

    I also say having to wait for turn in dance event, is also crap, everyone should be out now to do a personal best, to improve, or entertain the best they can and let chips fall, or why put oneself out there to compete?

    I feel one can allow applause, and knowing one did the very best possible on the day, as much as rank, or a medal, be the thing to feed the soul. As a fan, I love seeing the skater get that new personal best score, as much as seeing when they win something more tangible. I think one can be allowed to like apples and oranges and not always have to stick with one choice, every single day of the season, maybe today pears are fresher and look jucier than the tried and true plum, hmmn, even fruit salad can be fun to try from time to time...

    Sometimes teams behind get great material they train their butts off and do whatever it takes to improv, and it irritates me when people just parrot what they heard 2 or 3 seasons ago about a team, as the reason they should be held down in favor of so, and so. Wake up, and watch the teams skate; really try to appreciate the growth of each team over the course of their career journey and YES you can love direct competitor's and root for them both to do their best! I hope that the people judging them do know what they hec they are doing and I trust they can be less biased and thus more appreciative of what the team did that day on the ice, rather than just prejudge based on the fact one liked the idea, music, costume, choreo, whatever it happens to be that floats the boat.

    What I enjoyed more that anything about last season, was the fact that I appreciated the talents of both D&W and V&M and felt depending on the day and what energy, luck, was brought to bear, the gold could have gone either way; and been deserved. I happen to think the best team on the day won, but it doesn't make me think they are invincible for the rest of their career, but neither are D&W, they were silver medalists last season, it sure doesn't mean they automatically grab the top spot now that V&M are not competing, D&W have to work for it all over againjust like every other dance team, only they have some extra confidence and history of excellence to help them along. That's what Crone & Poirier have done, they too worked hard, took some risks and they have to hope that other's will eventually see their improvement; I sure do.

    I also see that P& B have improved, while F&S and a few other teams likely have a big big hill to climb.

    D&W who thrilled me so much last season, did not look as sharp at NHK, nor do they have the same thrilling choreo they had, this season, maybe they can't really count on the power of the music, or known story line, great bollywood costumes, or fun trend to carry the day, they are back to square one and they too need to shed the summer rust, and get back to work, maybe tweak things up a notch.

    I think that if they take C&P for granted (by thinking of them as just a 7th ranked team, while they are world & Olympic silver medalists skating on home ice with crowd behind them), then they might be in for a surprise, just like the higher ranked Kerr's were.

    F&S were surprized by P&B, who also had visibly trained and prepared for the encounter. It's a new season folks, and some teams are readier than others to forge ahead. I happen to think that C&P are one of those teams, who were very inspired by home olympics and V&M's success, and saw what it takes - hard work, great material, and so they too have done everything they could to take advantage of the opportunity given to them by V&M being out of GP play. I applaud their efforts.

    Gosh, seldom have I seen such an amazing turnaround and regardless of the outcome at Skate America, as I know it will take a miracle to beat a higher ranked team on home ice, but I also think if any team today has what it takes, to do it, or a least come very, very close, and make it a real hard fought contest, it is Vanessa and Paul!

    What is so awesome, is they can't rest themselves, as they are clearly being pushed by the also improving W&P and uber talented P & I, and with the possibility of the return of V&M, WHEE, lesser talented teams might crack under the strain, instead all the CDN cream is rising up and announcing they all want to play to win!

    I have always loved C&P programs, but this season, the image and talent, the total package being created and danced, actually matches the quality choreo. If I could make one tiny change, then I would suggest Vanessa change her hairstyle for SD, to something more loose and free falling, sexually flattering style, not quite so uptight, more in keeping with the music.

    What I also love this season, is how great her body looks in the FD dress, that fitted style looks amazing on her, she should burn all dresses with the layered ruffled flounces like example her violet gala dress, that hits her in all the wrong places. Think some of her posture issues, body lines, were as much about poor costuming, than anything else...

    I am wishing C&P all the best this season, I'll be rooting for them to make their own unique mark this season; a breakout from the pack and jetting way way up the ranks, their performances at Skate Canada were mesmerizing, can't wait to see the programs progress over the course of the season...
  22. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor Member

    The first time I saw them skate i was, like with many young teams, drawn by their brawny athleticism. Last year i thought they had made the biggest improvements. With two teams out this season should be very good to them. Go Canada!
    That being said i can't say i love this team very much, almost the same i felt about Pechelat/bourzat when i first saw them. Kudos for going with a different approach with their programs, though.

    I remember when people were gushing about their programs at the start of last year's GP.. I didn't find it great at all. Interesting choice of music by Queen, but it was hard for me to grasp what exactly they were trying to interpret, and it was err...incohesive, if i may say so. This year's FD is....ok, but not brilliant. The problem i have with some of their programs is whether the sound is on or off, i don't see much difference in their skating. Their SD is an example. But maybe i need to watch their FD more times to see what exactly is so special about it. :slinkaway:
    even more so than Belgosto's "tap" dancing OD that year...?
  23. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Sorry but that is a ridiculous generalisation.

    There is plenty of intricate and complex pop music. Beatles being one example.

    And if you don't see this song as intricate and complex, then you should get a hearing aid. :p
    Habs and (deleted member) like this.
  24. shutterbug

    shutterbug Well-Known Member

    I had the pleasure of watching C&P live at Skate Canada and was enormously impressed with their improvement from last season. Their FD is a masterpiece. :) Kudos to Carol & Yuris for knowing when to bring someone in to really give them a challenge. Very complex with lots of interesting choreographic details. I literally got goosebumps every time they did a run through. It’s still a little rough in places, but that’s to be expected so early in the season. I chatted with Paul’s dad briefly during the medal ceremony, and he commented on how amazing it was to see the progression of the program from where they started to where they are now. They had to video tape the sessions so that Vanessa & Paul could go back and look at them because there was no way they’d remember everything. But he said that Dean told him the kids were able to do everything he asked of them, and also that they reminded him of he and Jane at the same ages. :) What a huge compliment.

    As for their SD, I’m not quite sure what the SD is supposed to look like yet, so it’s hard to make comments. Loved the opening lift, and the excellent integration of the GW sequences. They skated it beautifully, probably better than their FD. Smart choice, IMHO, to go with just the one rhythm and a single piece of music.

    Costume wise, I loved the FD outfits. Simple, but striking, with a bit of a retro feel. I was a little surprised to see them go so formal for the SD. I was expecting something a little more casual to go with the bluesy feel of the music. Like Debra, I’d love to see Vanessa wear her hair down for this number just to loosen up the look a little bit. And she definitely does not need the frouffy hair piece if she is going to wear it up. I actually found it a bit distracting. The biggest issue with her dress is the strap across the top of the back. It’s in a really unflattering place that would make even a girl with perfect posture look slumped.

    Overall though, a great debut. :) Big step up from last year, but still lots of room for growth and refinement.We’ll get a better idea of where they stand later this week at Skate America, but I think their goal of top 5 this season is very doable.
  25. smileyskate

    smileyskate Active Member

    I thought it was refreshing to see the clean lines of the more plain outfits too; even though I wasn't sure why they picked those colors. They really were pretty and bright on the TV. Finally, no garish costumes. No excessive cleavage or bottoms that aren't made properly to stay in place. Gosh, I don't even remember seeing any OTT expressions (but I definitely could be wrong). For some reason, Paul just seemed great, especially this time. This competition kind of made me picture him as being a good pairs skater and I bet he'd have done that well also since he skates singles (or used to).
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
  26. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

    Hearing aids do not help one see. I am myopic but I wear glasses.

    Self-repetition does not art make. (And a tone of absolute certainty does not make a statement any truer than it actually is.) In this case, I cannot tell what the choreography means or how it relates to the song, or the music, or something else entirely. It seems to be a collection of movements that remind me of Dean's old choreography. (For example, the curved lift is a modified version of a lift Summersett/Gilles did for years, for whom Dean choreographed with little fanfare.) If you have a more coherent explanation I'm all ears -- and I need no hearing aid because I have glasses to read it.

    It's not a bad program, but it lacks coherence or originality, IN MY OPINION. Of course, it may be very meaningful and delightful and moving to another viewer.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2010
  27. casken

    casken Well-Known Member

    I agree. He plagiarizes himself as much as Shpilband/Zueva, it's just that he doesn't choreograph as many programs as they do so not as many people notice it. I laughed when the program opened with Pual dragging a fully extended Vanessa around in a circle becuase I always joke about Dean's tendency for "pulling the girl as if inanimate object" choreography.

    The choreography of C&P FD isn't particularly inspired or as detailed as their past 2 FDs, it's just that so many other teams have generic cookie cutter choreography that this FD still manages to stand out. Like I said before, I think C&P's team could have done a better job choreographing to this music than Dean.

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    No, about the same. B&A's tapless tap dance to music from a bad film that was not even of the designated era 20's/30's/40's give me a fine case of curmudgeonly dyspepsia.
  29. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Jun Y - we're in postmodern times now. Interpretations do not have to be literal anymore. ;)

    And if you watch any contemporary dance, they very rarely - if ever - are.

    I think exactly the opposite. Their past FDs were quite simple and whilst they worked very well to show off their basics, I always wished something more interesting with the choreography would have been done.

    And it finally has.
  30. Carmen Ovsiannikov

    Carmen Ovsiannikov Well-Known Member

    I agree abut Vanessa's posture. Perhaps there has been improvement but after reading some of the glowing reviews about her improvement I was surprised to find that her hunching was distracting even in the FD as much as I loved it.

    Usually with C&P I have really liked their OD's but never was crazy about the FD's. This season is the reverse. When I read C&P were skating to "Fallin" for their SD I was excited and interested to see it; I wasn't impressed. I agreed with Gannon and Belbin that aside from the opening lift the dance seemed on one level and went nowhere. Hopefully things will look different as the season progresses.

    Love the FD inspite of being distracted by Vanessa's skating from the waist up. I agree that C&P's version of Eleanor Rigby is reminiscent of the Dushesnay's Missing program, the choreography and Vanessa's dress in particular made me think of the French team. I do think that this new FD is a step forward for C&P and in will probably serve them well this season.

    I thought both the SD and FD costumes didn't flatter Vanessa as much as they should have.