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Could Cohen have finally been the dominant skater in 2007-2010 had she stayed around

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kwanoverrated, Aug 26, 2013.

  1. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Banned Member

    Poor Sasha. She was never my favorite but she was a very talented skater with many special qualities. She had to stay in the shadow of Michelle Kwan for many years though and so barely won any big titles which make people treat her like a failure today. Could she have taken over as the dominant skater had she hung around after 2006. Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa, were all retired and Kim did not get her shit together until 2009. Asada after 2006 and 2007 dissapointed, never reaching the same level of skating again. So it would be wide open for Sasha to finally take over on top.

    By 2009 Cohen would have had the reputation of several big victories (perhaps) which could have kept her on top in the judges eyes even after Kim possibly became the better skater too. Reputation means so much in the sport even under COP. Sasha also is better than Kim in many ways- spins, spirals, positions, footwork, double axel, speed, even if Kim is overall better in jumps and maybe edge quality and flow.

    She could have maybe even swept the big events that quadrennial, or atleast won a couple of them had she stayed. Why didnt she stay, she was only 21.
  2. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    Sasha would have been surpassed by the younger skaters like Mao and Yuna and perhaps even Ando. Why would she have suddenly learned to be consistent? Also Sasha was faster then Kim?
  3. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Banned Member

    Well on TV Kim looks much faster than Sasha, but I saw Sasha skate live at Nationals a couple times and she was way faster than she looked on TV, and even faster than Kim looked on TV, although Kwan and a few others were still faster. I never saw Kim live but if she looks the same as TV unlike Sasha who looks way faster than TV live, than Sasha would probably be faster.
  4. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Banned Member

    Since she wouldnt have the shadow of Kwan hanging over her, and when she went to Worlds or Olympics the shadow of Slutskaya hanging over her too. That wore on her mentally and made her inconsistent. She felt uncomfortable having to skate perfectly to win all the time, and having bigger names overshadow her. 2007-2010 was different. Only clean performances to win big events were Kim at Vancouver Olympics, while all others all top skaters made mistakes. She would have some breathing room and no big shadow to hurt her mentally and her fragile pysche.
  5. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    I doubt it. Cohen was a great short program skater, but the mental strain of executing all those extra elements over a 4 minute program just seemed too much for her. I suppose she might have been able to hold it together occasionally, and maybe even win a Worlds. It seemed, though, that even by 2006 her body was beginning to rebel at all the training hours, with one nagging injury after another. I think she made a good choice to retire when she did. I would even argue she made a good choice in attempting to come back for 2010. If she hadn't at least tried, she may have spent the rest of her life wondering if she should have.

    I don't think Sasha was ever as fast as someone like Kostner, but she did get a lot faster over the years, with much better edges than she showed in 2002.
  6. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

  7. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    No. Her prime was 2003-2006 and she couldnt even win a World or Olympic title or U.S (apart from her Kwan-less 06 title) competing against a past her prime Kwan who could no longer attempt more than 6 triples, an ill and aging Slutskaya who was out most of the quad, and Shizuka Erraticawa. Even had she been able to stay in her prime, or even more unlikely improve a bit further, it wouldnt be good enough in 2007-2010. The technical bar was being raised to higher heights by people like Kim, Asada, and Ando than anything she had faced from 2003-2006, and it would be to the point her technical skills were too inferior to win anymore even with a clean skate, while in 03-06 when she atleast had a chance with a clean skate she could never even produce that. She might have won the 2008 Worlds had she gone clean, but she would never have won the 2007 Worlds, 2009 Worlds, or 2010 Olympics even clean, and she never could even skate clean so most often would have found herself right outside the medals probably.

    I doubt she would have ever won a major title, and I also doubt she would have duplicated her 2004-2006 level of success either.

    Lastly skating against Kim who skates with huge speed and power and great basics; Asada who can match Cohen in lightness, positions, and elegance but also has better basic skating, speed, and technical skills than Cohen; and Kostner who blows Cohen away in basic skating and speed, and also would become a very elegant and beautiful skater; Sasha would start to take a bigger hit on her PCS for her inferior "skating skills" than she ever had before, which were previously ignored due to her other great qualities which almost nobody else could close to, and that there were few great basic skaters around then anyway. That plus being an older skater who hadnt won a big title yet, the judges would start to move on to newer stars unless she really brought something special to the table (aka her first ever clean 7 triple LP with spectacular choreography very soon).
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2013
  8. HVS

    HVS Active Member

    Sorry but nonsense here, you said Cohen more faster in live than TV but again believe Yuna live speed just as fast as in TV :rofl: You compared the one you saw live with the one in TV :rolleyes:

    Yuna's speed in real life is out of this world

    And to answer the topic. No!
  9. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    Sasha was lucky to win a US nationals and a GPF. IMO she did not have the mental makeup of a fighter. She was a beautiful skater who loved skating and expressing herself, but she was not a competitive skater. At the 2006 worlds she had the golden opportunity to win the world title, but she had a monumental collapse in the LP. She ended up with the bronze there. So I don't think she would have ever become a dominant skater on the eligible scene.
  10. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    She probably could have won a few more national titles, but I'm sure she could have found a way to give those titles away too.
  11. CantALoop

    CantALoop Well-Known Member

    Not with that egregious flutz she managed to get away with before 2006, or the lack of a consistent 3-3.
  12. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    I go to TEB every year, and Sasha Cohen was never the fastest, while Yu Na Kim is a very, very fast skater (with Carolina Kostner).
    Plus, Sasha Cohen lacks ice coverage. She has amazing qualities, but compared to Asada and Kim, she would have been beaten by both, maybe not in 2007, but after 2007.
    The answer is NO.
  13. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    I think an Olympic medal, a couple of World medals and a National title is probably all she could ask for, given her usual level of consistency. To think she had thought about retiring after SLC, I doubt she was ever really thinking about staying post Turin. I don't think winning 2006 Worlds would have made her stay for another 4 years, not to mention that she flopped as usual and was overtaken by an (supposedly promising) up and comer US lady at that event. Losing to Kwan, Slutskaya and Arakawa was bad enough, losing to a new batch of promising skaters would make her look much worse.

    BUT, IF SHE REALLY DID STAY AFTER 2006, with how things turned out, she probably would have comfortably stayed on top within the US, but she did not have the technical goods to take on Asada, Kim or Ando. By 2009, Kim was pulling ahead due to jump GOEs - another weaker area of Cohen's. So I think she could most likely pick up a few more world medals (most notably 2008 and perhaps also 2009), but I don't think she could have been dominant. She would have been the dark hosue veteran, much like Kwan post 2003.
  14. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Cohen could not have medalled in Vancouver with her usual level of consistency. Cohen would have had to be letter perfect (assuming she even remained a top skater all that time) to even hope to medal in Vancouver.
  15. RickInSanJose

    RickInSanJose Active Member

    When a small figure skater casts a large shadow, there's a very good reason.
  16. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Banned Member

    These type of comments I always see about Cohen and they are unfair. How many titles did she really give away in her career. She may have lost Nationals to Kwan in 2003-2005 even had she skated cleanly. She may have won them too, but it is hard to say for sure. So one cant say for certain she gave those titles away. 2004 Worlds seemed hers to win all along, but Shizuka's amazing LP may have changed that so one cant say for sure she gave that away either. 2006 Olympics was Irina's to lose going in, and Shizuka's to lose after the practices, so they gave that away more than she did, even though Shizuka lucked out to win with a weak performance in the end. So the only event she clearly gave away was 2006 Worlds. Yet people act like she was some headcase who would give away every easy opportunity for a big title when we can only say for certain she did that once. So the labelling of her as a headcase, failured, wasted talent, are unfair.

    2007-2010 would have seen many more clear opportunities and as she had very few of those in her career we have no idea how she would handle them. She might take them.
  17. leafygreens

    leafygreens Well-Known Member

    I think Sasha definitely would have won nationals in 2007 and wish she would have stayed for that. Kimmie had already gotten weak by that year despite winning WC the year before. 2008, not sure because Mirai was seen as the wunderkind and I think Mirai still would have won. 2009 was another weak field that Sasha may have won. I just don't see her sticking it out that long. Her heart didn't seem in it. Hindsight is 20/20. Sasha did not know the fields would be weak in those years. Also, she had a groin injury in 2006, and by 2010 her body seemed to be falling apart.

    As far as internationals those years, I have no idea. It would have been nice to have another American "queen," even if she didn't do well internationally. None of our other skaters did much, either.
  18. Rob

    Rob Beach Bum

    Having seen Kim and Cohen live, I'd say Kim was faster. Sasha has better lines and extension, but the judges don't seem to ding Kim too much on her lines or extensions.
    If Cohen approached the COP the way Kostner does, she might have found more consistency and challenged Ando/Asada for 2007-2008, but by 2009 I think Kim would have taken over.
  19. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    She gave away the National title as early as 2000. If only she didn't fall on that last 3toe, the judges might have gone with her instead, given how totally flat Kwan was throughout the competition and fell twice herself. It wasn't her Nationals to lose by any means, but she was in a position to win it until the final 30 seconds of that long program.

    2003 Nationals was up for debate. Kwan was very "on" throughout the competition but had limited technical content. She on the other hand had 3lutz3toe and 3toe half loop 3sal planned, and had the momentum going after winning her GPs and GPF, beating Slutskaya in Russia. It wasn't her Nationals to lose per se but she could have won it if clean.

    2004 GPF was also hers to win but alas it turned out to be the reason for Tarasova to fire her instead.

    2004 Nationals was clearly for her to win. She placed ahead of a clean (albeit shaky) Kwan after the short in 2004 and got a 6.0 even after a fall. They were setting her up to win (most probably because they already knew about Kwan's injury and the fact that Kwan was unlikely to remain as active as they wanted her to be). Ofcourse, with how Kwan skated, Cohen would have to be perfect (like at the post-Worlds Marshalls) to have a chance. The fact that she was far from perfect makes it moot but I do feel like this was her Nationals to lose, and she did lose it.

    2004 Worlds was also hers to win. Kwaqn was too far behihnd after the short and SLutskaya was not in peak form. She was 0.5 turn on the 3sal away from it. Arakawa was clearly superior in the free but judging from the scores Cohen might have done it if she was clean herself. The post-Worlds Marshall proved this point. (just a cheesefest I know but still)

    Having beaten Kwan at 2004 Worlds, 2005 Nationals was supposed to be much more interesting and she was at least a co-favorite. Alas. An off Kwan with the worse program of her life was still sufficient to win it all.

    I have mixed feelings about Turin. She entered it as a reigning world silver medalist and was first after the short program. I feel she was a strong medal contender but it was Slutskaya's competition to lose. Too bad it was Arakawa, not her, that walked through it.

    2006 Worlds was clear as day for her to lose.
  20. Loves_Shizuka

    Loves_Shizuka The Stolbova/Klimov and James/Cipres Uber

    ^It wasn't too bad Arakawa "walked through it" at all.

    :D ;)

    (I know what you mean btw, just joking)
  21. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Banned Member

    Even if all that is true I still think people are being way too hard on Cohen. So often in those events she was just one mistake away from winning. Just one move away. That is not a headcase. A headcase is someone who goes out and atleast half their jumps often. This is not Cohen. She was just unlucky to skate in an era almost all big titles were won by people doing a clean performance, whether was alternatively Slutskaya, Kwan, or Arakawa.

    Arakawa is a bigger headcase than Cohen. She went through almost her whole career 8th to 20th in big events, and even often not making it out of Japan. This is disgraceful for someone of her talent and ability level she showed at her best. She just happened to put it all together or half together twice at the right moments. Nobody calls her a headcase though, and she is lauded as some master competitor when she lost to Cohen 97% of the events they were in together over the years. What a joke.

    Many events from 2007-2010 were won by people with mistakes or who didn't have the whole package. That is my main point. The only exception was the 2010 Olympics. So Sasha wouldn't have to be perfect to win like she had to be from 2003-2006.
  22. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    I've never seen people say Shizuka was a master competitor. I have seen people call Shizuka a literal one-hit-wonder by only winning a major competition when she skated to Turandot.

    Anyway, my comment was more about how although on paper, it looked as though Cohen could win, it somehow never happen. Since we're in the land of hypotheticals, I don't think it's unreasonable to think that she could have won more national titles or she could have lost them given her track record (even if she still placed high overall). As for Worlds, we're assuming she would have skated well and the competitors would have skated similarly. Cohen's jumping technique would have been dinged more heavily under the 2008-2010 code compared to the previous code. Also, the other skaters caught up to her in terms of doing high level spins, so she no longer had that major advantage. Cohen may have had the best spiral extensions, but Asada's extensions were also excellent while Kim's spirals are given high GOEs because of the speed and ice she covers (which are superior to Cohen's).

    So, we don't know what would have happened. I will say though that although things seem like they would have fallen in place for Cohen, as her career shows (not saying she's a headcase or a failure), just because it looks right on paper doesn't mean it will actually be right in reality.
  23. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Banned Member

    Sometimes it take different people different rates to mature and get it together. Sasha was still very young in 2010, only 20. Many skaters hit their primes in their mid 20s and are still competitive to their late 20s so she had lots of time to get it together. The skating World was waiting for her to put it all together to crown her huge marks and big titles. They waited for it when Slutskaya and Kwan were at their dominant peak, and Hughes and Butyrskaya were still around. They waited through the whole crapshoot Arakawa/Slutskaya/Kwan era which Cohen was supposed to dominate but couldnt quite get it all together and get the good luck she needed. They would continue to wait for her as the new generation of stars came and eventually it would have happened if she just stayed a bit more patient.
  24. kwanette

    kwanette Fetalized since 1998

    Sasha was born on Oct. 26, 1984. Do the math.
  25. kwanoverrated

    kwanoverrated Banned Member

    Sorry I meant I thought she was 20 in 2006. I guess it was 21 so I was one year off. Still young and young enough to peak in the 2007-2010 after her growing pains in 2003-2006.

    It seems nobody wants to acknowledge Sasha was unlucky to skate in the era she did. Kwan and Slutskaya are two of the greatest skaters of all time and more important wise two of the greatest competitors ever. This is hard for any skater who is not totally consistent (which I admit Sasha isnt or wasnt then) to cope with, no matter their skills. Shizuka was not consistent but at her best was one of the most talented overall skaters of the last 25 years and seemed to only bring her best when Sasha was on the verge of a big titles. There was also Hughes, Butyrskaya, and Suguri. It was a very tough era to skate in. What if she had been born at a different time and skated in another era. It is not all her fault she couldnt win more, and it doesnt mean she couldnt have started to win if she stayed in.
  26. orientalplane

    orientalplane Mad for mangelwurzels

    Yes indeed - a remarkable piece of logic, and explained with incomparable clarity. :respec:
  27. Jammers

    Jammers Well-Known Member

    It seemed to be in Sasha's DNA to always screw up when it counted so even if she kept going i don't see her winning any major championships beyond Nationals. The younger girls simply were better skaters then her and better all around skills.
  28. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady Well-Known Member

    I think she could not have been dominant by any stretch of the imagination, but she could hypothetically have won every US title. If her body stayed healthy, she could have dominated the USA ladies easily.
  29. Lnt175

    Lnt175 Member

    Cohen skated against formidable competition, but by contrast Sumners and Thomas was just as, and probably tougher. She had to face Witt, who was even a tougher competitor than Kwan and Slutskaya put together. If Cohen had to skate from 1984-1988 she would have had to be essentially flawless in the free skate (and master figures) to win. It always just seemed a tall order for her to stay on her feet at alot of major competitions. In alot of ways she was erratic like Harding was. She did well for herself, but could have done alot better. In 07-10 quad I don't see her coming close to beating out Kim, Asada Ando or Rochette in 09-10, but like others said may have won some more nationals.
  30. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Cohen probably could have won major titles if her peak was 93-95 but then again you could say that about virtually everyone. 93-95 and probably 77-83/84 are definitely the "soft" times in ladies skating history. Essentialy with her consistency issues, technical limitations, knack for beating herself the bigger the opportunity, and her lack of basic skating and overall speed and power, it would probably take a weaker than usual era for Sasha to have won major title(s).