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Coaching changes for better or worse?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by The Accordion, Jul 11, 2010.

  1. The Accordion

    The Accordion Well-Known Member

    The Kostner thread in GSD made me think about this.

    What are the examples that come to mind for you of skaters changing coaches later in their careers. Did it turn out for the better, worse, or not make much difference?
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
    LynnW and (deleted member) like this.
  2. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

    Changing to Frank Carroll did a great deal of good for Tim Goebel and Evan Lysacek (IMO)

    MOIJTO Banned Member

    Don't forget Mirai, she showed great improvement and I only think she will get better.

    I think a better question is skaters who may have done better by changing a coach period.
  4. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    Johnny Weir changed coaches and it RUINED HIM. He was deceived by those pseudo-Russians . . . I still do not get how they got him to believe that what Viktor and Oksana did was good when it was complete EMPTY sh@#.

    If the COP rewards transitions and difficult jump entries, why would Johnny train with those that did not do them, did not know how to do them, and therefore could not teach them.

    Furthermore, Johnny's technique was better than Viktor's technique before he switched. All Galina and Viktor taught Johnny was be as inconsistent as Viktor and act like posing on the ice was MIFTs (now known as a transitions) just like Viktor.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  5. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor Member

    ^ita. Johnny Weir is better than the old-school, empty programs given to him, Galina was interested mainly in developing his skating skills, lines, and making him a polished skater- but the problem is, he already excelled at these aspects even before he even went to her. Her goal was probably to make a Baiul out of him. :yikes: Extremely COP-unfriendly.Great accomplishment by winning first/only world medal in 08, but it wasn’t Galina’s coaching or Anissina’s choreo that got him there, but Takahashi, who did one extra combo jump too many.

    Bad- Sasha leaving Tarasova
    Good- Yagudin leaving Mishin for Tarasova/Morozov
  6. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    Yagudin was a totally different skater under Tarasova and so much for the better. I loved his Lawrence of Arabia FS.
  7. DickButtonFan

    DickButtonFan New Member

    Agree Weir switching was bad Yags to TAT was great.

    Kwan going coachless was a disaster, liked her under atruntian and Mao was great under him too.
  8. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Yag's long programs after he switched were more or less the same except they're to diff. music. :p His shorts were great though.
  9. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

    I quite liked Yagudin's Broken Arrow free skate. It was far more expressive and distinctive than anything he had done before.
  10. Aaron W

    Aaron W Well-Known Member

    Kwan leaving Carroll during the 2002 Olympic season wasn't a great choice. For me, I never found her skating post break-up to be quite as good as it was pre break-up. I can't help but believe that if he had been her coach heading into the 2002 Olympics, he would have had her in the same brilliant athletic form she was in at the 2000 and 2001 World Championships.
  11. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    No way. He showed much better choreography and use of music after the switch, not to mention he himself showed much more presence and maturity as a skater.
  12. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

    Yag's had great SPs under the team of TT AND Morosov. Seeing how sucky TT's works have been for other skaters after Morosov left her team make me believe that Morosov was solely responsible for all of Yag's best programs.

    Michael Weiss's move to Don Laws from Audrey Weisiger didn't help him any. His 3A and 4T were hopelesslly unfixable by then and then there was the matter of the wife's choreographies :scream:. He won his 3rd National title under Laws pretty much by default.

    Trenary went to Carol Heiss after Fassi and was kaput. The same for Kadavy after she left Fassi.

    Tiffany Chin parting ways with John Nicks was not good for her.

    Then there was Nicole Bobek who bounced from coach to coach...
  13. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    I agree - the change from 98 to 99 was amazing. It was like a totally different skater.
  14. loopey

    loopey Well-Known Member

    - Arakawa to Callaghan was good.
    - Yags to Tat was good.
    - Obertas/Slavnov to Moskvina not good.
    - Nikodinov to Callaghan not good.
    - Kwan to self/dad, not good.
    - Cohen to Wagner not good.
    - Cohen to TAT was good.
    - Asada to TAT not good.
    - Abbott to Yuka Sato ???? Not sure what to say about this.

    And off topic, (perhaps this deserves a new thread), but skaters that might have actually benefited from switching coaches but didn't IMO include:
    - Zhang/Zhang (so much potential)
    - Dube/Davison (still waiting for this)
    - Rachel Flatt
  15. IneZR

    IneZR New Member

    - Butyrskaya leaving Kudriavtsev for Chaikovskaya: Maria really improved under her coaching. She became more consistent and flourished as a performer.

    - Belbin/Agosto leaving Shpilband/Zoueva and switching to Linichuk/Karponosov: I know a lot of people would disagree with me on this, but IMHO it was a good move for them. I didn't always like choreography Linichuk gave to them (although Ave Maria was gorgeous :swoon:), Tanith before Linichuk and Tanith circa 09-10 are two absolutely different skaters. Tanith became more polished and elegant and her leg line improved a lot. Also, I don't think Tanith/Ben's placements would have improved had they stayed with Marina/Igor. The results of 09' Worlds might have looked completely different had they stayed in Shiplband/Zoueva's camp. They might have been surpassed not only by V/M, but also by D/W and even P/B.

    - Pechalat/Bourzat leaving Zazoui for Zhulin: I am not sure what was the situation in Zazou's camp, maybe Nathalie/Fabian felt like they weren't getting enough attention as Delobel/Schoenfelder were clearly Zazou's No 1 priority, but I like the changes Zhulin made to them. They started skating with more speed and matured as a couple.

    - Mirai Nagasu switching to Frank Carroll: she made a huge progress with Frank. She is still so young and I am sure her big titles are yet to come. ;)

    - Takahashi leaving Morozov: his smartest decision ever!

    - Obertas/Slavnov switching from Velikovs to Moskvina: with all my respect to Tamara as a coach, to this day I think that she ruined this pair.:angryfire Suddenly Julia's jumps were gone, she wasn't as consistent on the throws as she was before, plus horrible choreography they simply couldn't perform well - aaah, what a waste of talent!

    - Sasha going to Wagner :scream:

    - Mao switching to Tarasova: I hated the choreography TAT gave to Mao, hated the costumes, hated to see Mao looking so miserable in the kiss-and-cry after disastrous skate at Cup of Russia. They just weren't a good match.
  16. Hedwig

    Hedwig WoolSilk Fanatic

    obviously: Kim to Orser=great

    Gritschuk Platov from Duboba to Lininschuk also great
  17. pumba

    pumba New Member

    Totmianina/Marinin leaving Pavlova for Vasiliev helped them obtain the qualities (amazing consistency, quality of jumps, emotional stability) that completed with their natural elegenace, perfect lines and physical beauty lead them to the Olys gold.
    After reading the numerous ambiguous interviews of all three parties one may think that Mukhortova/Trankov's partnership under Vasiliev was a total disaster, but I'd say that was definitely for better. At least they got an unvalued experience that will help them a lot even after they broke up.
    As for Obertas/Slavnov - surely their collaboration with Moskvina was a disaster, but seems like Tamara Moskvina compensated this failure with Kawaguti/Smirnov, who basically perfom in the same style as O/S.
    Seems like working with Moskvina did not help Borzenkova/Chuviliaev either.
    And I wish a coach like Vasiliev for the Zhangs. There is no way they'll progress under Bin Yao.
    Grischuk/Platov's, Klimova/Ponomarenko's, Kulik's move to Tarasova was also great.
  18. Jun Y

    Jun Y Well-Known Member

    Methinks whether a coach switch is successful has a lot to do with the skater him/her/themselves, especially the age, maturity, and rationale for the switch. Sometimes a coach may be fantastic for one skater but disastrous for another, and one has to look at the skater (and, sometimes, her mother/father) for the cause.
  19. CynicElle

    CynicElle Well-Known Member

    Kwan from self/dad to Scott Williams was good. And very attractive. :saint:
  20. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    But her programs were less interesting, IMO. I loved the originality she had at the beginning.
  21. IneZR

    IneZR New Member

    With Chaikovskaya Maria gained confidence she was lacking while being Kudriavtsev's student. He is a great technical coach, but it looked like he just couldn't find the right words to make Maria feel more confident: sometimes she looked so frightened to be on the ice, I felt sorry for her. I agree that her programs became less interesting, but it might have been Chaikovskaya's strategy to gain consistency with the jumps by having Maria to skate more simple programs with watered down choreo. In the end it did pay off: she won her biggest titles under Chaikovskaya. ;)
  22. query5

    query5 New Member

    if you are talking about program with regards to coaches,
    sasha to tat wasn't good, wagner wasn't good, same old same old,
    technique improved under tat disater under sarah's coach
    mao coachless, under tat-programs diaster, technique so-so
    abbott under yuka-disaster,

    for all the coaching changes, the programs don't improve under new coaches they usually stay the same and/or get worse. What should improve under coaching changes is the skaters mental, technique that should improved, but because figure skating in more muscle memory alot of times it doesn't improve and or gets worse.
    it still about the talent and mental ability of the skater not about the coach, and who the judges, and federations are willing to overlook their screwups,
    under michelle no-one over looked her mishaps.
  23. Fallcolor

    Fallcolor Member

    She did but her speed and power throughout the busy sections were dramatically reduced. Depends on what what you think outweighs the other...finer quality 'movements' in exchange for ability to perform more difficult tricks + wow factors. The move was good for their silver in 09, but olympic podium would probably remain the same. (oops i guess this topic has been discussed too much already lol)
    Thought he had his best programs with Morozov. Even though his work isn't everyone's taste, i think a skater as talented as Takahashi would have been able to inspire more original ideas from Morozov...

    also, -- i actually think the Siudek's coaching change to Gauthier in '03 was good for them. They had more success that yr before her shoulder injury, and they seemed to have a great working relationship.
  24. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    How about these food-for-thought oldies -

    Rodnina/Zaitzev from Zhuk to Tarasova in the 70s. Good? Bad? Or didn't matter?

    Fratianne electing to stay with FC over politically strong Carlo Fassi [coach of Peggy, Dorothy and John Curry] in 1979. Lost the gold in '80 by a smidge to Poetzsch.

    Tiffany Chin - what a mess! FC to John Nicks to Don Laws back to FC. Who was the best coach for her and who would've taken her the furthest?

    Nicole Bobek- from Richard Callaghan to Carlo Fassi. Good or bad?


    The Good - Mirai to FC from Charlene Wong; Rippon to Orser from Morozov; Yagudin to Tat from Mishin; Goebel to FC from Heiss-Jenkins; Arakawa to Tat from Callaghan; Kwan to Arutunian from Williams; Kwan from coachless to Williams

    The Bad - Cohen to Wagner; Kwan to coachless

    Can't quantify - Abbott from Zakrzajek [sp?] to Sato [too early]; B/A to Linichuk from Shpilband [better skills but dumped by 2009-10 season]; McBru from Sappenfield to Nicks [alas, we will never know:(]
  25. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    He actually had transitions in Troika. His post 98 longs were from one element to another. And they were mostly on movie-soundtrack-hero motifs. The first one (1999) was great; the others were kind like Evan's post Carmen works--same elements to diff. music
  26. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    Tiffany Chin should have stayed with Frank Carroll. He got her to a Jr. World Championship with solid balanced technique in figures and free skating and she was doing the 3A, 3F, 3Lp, 3S, and 3T in practice. Mr. Nicks did will in terms of enhancing her development, but he really only added PIZZAZZ!!! to her skating. Too bad the person in charge of her development always thought the grass was greener elsewhere.

    I also do not think changing to coaches with different technique is advisable, and I think FC's Bostonian-MVO technique was not all that compatible with Mr. Nick's British technique, which is why she declined. By the time she ended up with Don Laws, the mechanics of her jumps were too muttled. One would have thought she never had consistent triples.
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  27. olympic

    olympic Well-Known Member

    Are you talking about Mama?
  28. RockTheTassel

    RockTheTassel Well-Known Member

    :confused: Why would you call this a disaster? I don't think his skills or programs declined under Yuka. While with her, Jeremy won nationals by twenty-five points and got his highest placement at Worlds yet. Yes, he messed up at the Olympics, but he was already known to do poorly at major competitions. I don't think that would have been different if he'd trained with another coach.
  29. bardtoob

    bardtoob Former Choreographer for Anna Maria Tragikova

    Yes, but I am also trying to not be mean :slinkaway . . . What's wrong with me today? :2faced:
    Last edited: Jul 12, 2010
  30. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

    For realz! Abbott won Skate Canada over Takahashi, had the 2nd highest rated LP at the GPF with the highest TES score, put a beatdown on the reigning World champ and eventual Olympic champ by 25 points, and placed 5th at Worlds under Sato's tutelage. I certainly wouldn't say she hasn't helped him.