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Cinquanta Wants to Eliminate Short Programs

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by reese, Mar 26, 2014.

  1. RunnersHigh

    RunnersHigh Well-Known Member

    If it is football, baseball or basketball, I can agree with you, but figure skating.. well kinda different with them.
    Sometimes audience must keep calm, stop moving, practice good manners and understand the sport...
  2. amaro

    amaro Active Member


    It's like basketball and football are governed by a single organization because both sports use rounded objects to play. And then the head, whose background is basketball, tries to cut the game time of football in half because he thinks it's too long compared to basketball. Fxxxing ridiculous.

    ISU should be the organization with the worst governance in the history of organizations.
  3. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

    It could be that it's an ISU policy but not a OSC policy. It's hard to say off hand as the last 3 olys were in the 3 most competitive skating countries. Were there any norwegan skaters in Lillehammer?

    Eta: whoops, forgot Torino came after slc. But still, the other olys being in Italy, Japan and France only support my point that it's rare for the olys to be hosted by a country who doesn't already have skaters who can qualify on their own.
  4. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    It doesn't seem like they got automatic entries, since such a big deal was made about Norway getting a lady at this Olympics. (Looking at the entry list- there don't appear to be any in any of the events.)

    I don't mind a spot for the host. It's like the GP. It's not an unusual thing for figure skating. As long as they don't take up someone else's spot. If entries are limited, and the host entry counts- then it seems like an issue. Will the host entry have to meet the minimum score? Or are we going to have an Eddie the Eagle?
  5. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    This is the first time I saw these two statements (from Phil Hersh's publication of the entire letter.)
    Is there anyone who pays attention to the sport who doesn't understand the difference between these two disciplines? They are nothing alike.

    HOLY CRAP! Did anyone notice this? He is saying that an Olympic medal event should go to Synchronized Skating!!!! I don't see the IOC going for it, but it may be the first thing he's said I agree with.
  6. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

    after the very strong performances in the sp today in the world championship... is speedy still thinking about getting rid of the SP??
  7. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

    the closest I've come to seeing this at an ISU event was jr worlds in holland. Karen I think her name was? She was clearly the worst skater, finished last in the sp but still skated an LP despite not making the cut off. Idk if she had some min score, or if they even did that back then, but being the worst didn't = bad per se. Clearly she could skate and I'm sure it was good experience for her. Plus it was just one skater, so I didn't mind. I think it's a nice idea actually.
  8. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

    plus the I rony of it all. It's his changes that have morphed dance closer and closer to pairs.

    I'd rather see synchro than the team event any day!
  9. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady Well-Known Member

    Would anyone prefer to see the short program cut in favor of synchronized skating? Furthermore how about cutting the free skate down two minutes to make time for comedy adult skating. Does that need to be a priority :confused:?
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  10. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady Well-Known Member

    The thing is Norway might not have had anyone to send. That's not unthinkable. Further research is needed.
  11. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    I don't think it is SP cut = synchro. I think the comment was because there would be 1 fewer speed skating medal awarded it could go to synchro. It has nothing to do with the short program; they were two separate issues.

    The SP cut seems to be to shorten the event so jr. and sr. worlds can be combined. There was nothing about bringing synchro to regular worlds.
  12. Terri

    Terri Well-Known Member

    What the hell kind of proposal is that?! No, thank you.
  13. wickedwitch

    wickedwitch Well-Known Member

    How many of his proposals have failed in the past?
  14. escaflowne9282

    escaflowne9282 Reformed Manspreader

    Egads! Just think, the wonderful Ladies SPs at Worlds would never have occured if Cinquanta had his way
  15. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    I do think if there are two programs there should be more difference in what they measure. And I like juliann's suggestion of giving separate medals for each as well as one for the combined or all-around event.

    There was already a move from complete freedom in the freeskate (combined with no freedom at all in the compulsory figures) to Zayak rule, to well-balanced program guidelines which later became requirements, before IJS limited the options still further. Meanwhile the short program became a lot freer between 1988 and 1989.

    One way or another, there does need to be better transparency (of where the scores came from, as well as, most of us agree, who the scores came from) than just "do whatever you want that can fit in 4 minutes, and each judge will decide what order they think you should finish in compared to the other skaters, with a couple of numbers announced so the judges can keep track of their ordering."

    I.e., some definition of what the skaters are being scored on.

    But if there are to be two programs, then make the requirements for one much stricter and more specific, and give the skaters more options/variety in the kinds of elements they can use to earn points in the freer program.

    As things currently stand, all the skills that are now required in the SP currently are or easily could be required in the long program. So from that point of view it could work to have competitions of long programs only.

    That would save money both for organizers (except for combining junior and senior events) and for skaters themselves.

    It might benefit casual fans who are confused why the best performance in the freeskate doesn't always win gold.

    It wouldn't benefit those of us diehard fans who like to see more skating in general when we travel to events, and to see different sides of the same skaters.

    Would making the freeskate even less free mean more skills that aren't defined elements would die out? Or could there be more effort to develop the "choreo" part of the freeskate in addition to the required elements?

    Officials and federations -- and coaches and skaters -- should think through the implications seriously. What kinds of skill sets does the sport want to promote and reward? How can that be done without adding to the expense? Would cutting down to one program save more expense money than it would lose in revenue and in technical rigor?

    The other drawback I see to using only one phase in large events like Worlds would be that everyone would skate a long program -- it would be more than 24 skaters, but rather the full fields, without the cuts from the short. And the programs would be longer.

    Unless the fields are limited by stricter minimum technical scores and/or qualifying events before skaters are even allowed to enter Junior Worlds (Euros and 4Cs could be qualifiers for Worlds), we'd be talking about single events lasting 6 or 7 hours. And even with a seeded draw based on world standings, sometimes a medal contender would end up in an early group (a newcomer to international competition, or someone who sat out for most of a year, or more, for one reason or another).

    TV wouldn't like that. And a medal-worthy skate in an earlier group would likely be underscored, not intentionally but just by human nature.

    Yes, there was. See the "interim system" from ca. 2003 and 2004.

    The change from 6.0 to IJS and the change from identifying judges to anonymity both happened around the same time, but they are not the same thing.

    We have seen anonymous 6.0 judging and non-anonymous IJS judging. Two completely separate issues that should not be confused. Address each one separately
  16. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

    I agree that the sp and lp have slowly been morphing into one over the years, and that I'd prefer they distinguish them further rather than simply get rid of one.
  17. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    From the Sochi qualification document:

    (Rule 400 A/B paragraph 5 from Special Regulations and Technical Rules 2012 specifies that they must meet the TES minimums.)

    Was Cinquanta's proposal that Korean Pairs and Dance teams -- assuming they have teams that meet the citizenship requirements -- don't have make the TES minimums? Or is he proposing to make the rules the same for Korea as they were in Russia?
  18. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    I was thinking about the SD and am thinking what if they kept the Pattern Dance, but forced the skaters perform a custom-made OSP-style step sequence twice and a lift that must be a level 1 or 2 at most.

    They should also start looking at expanding the type of pattern dances so they can include more rhythms. Like why not use Torvil/Dean's Rock n Roll 1983 OSP and adapt that for a pattern dance for a Jive/Rock n Roll SD. I know people don't want to further kill what's left of a compulsory dance, but I think they can make the pattern dances that are adapted from OSPs incorporate more CD-style steps. Some OSPs are incredibly complex and would need to be simplified anyway.
  19. Rex

    Rex Well-Known Member

    He'd do better to eliminate that shoe polish from his hair.
    algonquin and (deleted member) like this.
  20. analia

    analia Well-Known Member

    South Korea doesn't have a pairs team for christ's sake and their imported dance teams aren't marketing worthy. I don't think South Koreans care about figure skating. They only care about Yuna.

    And speedy's proposal doesn't even make sense. If there are 40+ entries which is very likely the whole free skating competition is going to run for five or so hours and that's just one discipline. Who is going to broadcast that? Then you would have to have those preliminary rounds like before they had minimum technical score and no one really saved any money.
  21. ronniev

    ronniev New Member

    Sure, while we're at it why not make the warmup more exciting so that only 4 of the 6 per warmup group get to actually skate their program. The first 4 to land one of each of the triples gets to advance.
  22. Xela M

    Xela M Well-Known Member

    :D I love this!
  23. TheIronLady

    TheIronLady Well-Known Member

    I think they will never accept going backward to a compulsory SP (where everyone has to do the same required elements such as a double flip in combination with another jump) because it would expose certain judges' inability to evaluate and differentiate quality. So that's not going to fly. It would undermine some judges appearing competent and reflect poorly on the whole-- anonymous or not. The IOC and non-skating people want ISU judging to appear more objective and measured.
    Last edited: Mar 27, 2014
  24. riveredge

    riveredge Active Member

    in short speedy is trying to bribe the korean team in order for them to shut up.. :rofl:
  25. ronniev

    ronniev New Member

    well since he wants to make it more "exciting" I figured this would add to the drama...
  26. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

    This is a very old IOC rule and it's previously been used in several sports, including but not limited to figure skating. The U.S. men's field hockey team, for example, played at both the Los Angeles and Atlanta Games as the host nation entry. They've never come close to qualifying for an Olympics on their own. As one example in figure skating, Arai/Amano used a host entry in 1998 as Japan hadn't qualified a pair team.

    Norway chose not to use its automatic host spots in 1994.
  27. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    Italy's curling team also got to compete at the 2005 WC's in Victoria, BC and the Olympics, though there were only about 225 curlers in all of Italy, and they were true amateurs. They became very beloved among the crowd in Victoria.

    If this is an IOC rule, then I don't understand how allowing a Korean Pairs and Dance team is bribing Korea with anything, unless the change is to exempt the TES minimum qualification from the host. It's possible that Korea will create a Pairs team in the next few years and grant Koleto citizenship before 2018, but Min/Koleto had this year's Olys TES minimums, and they were less than two points away from the Worlds minimums from their skate at 4C's; they likely wouldn't need an exception (The Wikipedia article on Korean naturalization lists "Foreigners with exceptional talent;" among the category of people who are allowed dual citizenship, and it cites a Library of Congress entry.)
  28. Sylvia

    Sylvia Still recovering from Worlds...

    Rebeka KIM / Kirill MINOV (KOR) met the Worlds minimums (28 SD / 38 FD) at 2014 Junior Worlds:
    ISU World Junior Championships 2014 12.03.2014 32.07 J
    ISU World Junior Championships 2014 14.03.2014 40.56 J

    Back on topic...

    AFP article: ISU says it is mulling 'innovations'
  29. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

    eliminate the SP, change the size of the oval for speed skating, and eventually eliminate short track? He's going to be getting love notes from every direction.

    The only folks I can see liking this are the Olympic committees -- less demand for ice time/facilities reduces their costs.
  30. manhn

    manhn Well-Known Member

    What--eliminate short track?!?! And Korea isn't complaining about that travesty? What--an automatic ice dance team entry is gonna mitigate the elimination of one of that country's most popular winter sports?