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Choreo step sequence and choreo spirals

Discussion in 'Moves In The Field' started by hanca, Feb 20, 2011.

  1. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

    Aussie Willie...just wondering from a judging perspective when you are awarding GOE, are you rewarding it based on the level of skating your watching or based on an overall standard? For example say you were judging an adult competition where the skater has very good speed and height on a jump for an adult skater. Would that person get + GOE or would they have to have good speed and height compared to the general skating population?
  2. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    hanca, the only thing I can say is to not attempt elements, jumps or spins, that the skater can't master properly, making the attempt in competition too risky.

    The goal is not to get points with poor tries. This is not the purpose of the judging system. Poor tries are marked accordingly, with points and negative GOE.

    There are already some competitions that are judged under a system that doesn't penalize poor tries too much, that is the 6.0 judging. Therefore this kind of competition fits what you mean better.
  3. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    With IJS and judging elements, I judge on an overall standard. I am not looking at the skater being an adult or a kid but just a skater and what they put out there. If a skater, being an adult or kid, does a good jump, they will be rewarded accordingly. You could say the skater earns their GOE, not the judge gives it to them. The ISU guidelines make it a lot clearer than the deduction sheets you used to have because it also has what you are looking for to get elements into a positive territory with GOEs. So you can have more consistency with overall judging.

    I found judging under 6.0 you were more likely to look at a skater and give them marks based on what that they were good for the level rather than what they were doing. It is a placement system and there is so much more subjectivity with it.

    As for the comments about judging standards differing from region, I don't think it is the judges. It is what the skaters put out there that you are judging.

    Being an adult skater myself, I know that my jumps are pretty crap and I would only be giving myself probably -2. But I am my own harshest judge. I really admire good adult skaters who do have great spins and jumps because I know how difficult they can be to come by. But it doesn't mean I am going to judge them any differently.
  4. overedge

    overedge Janny uber

    I get what you are saying (it confirms what my coach says too), but I agree with hanca that framing the system like this is somewhat unfair to adults. IMHO "good" in this system is predicated on what young competitive skaters can achieve. I know that there are "good" things that should be common to all jumps, e.g. clean and correct takeoff edges, controlled landings, but when the criteria are interpreted to include things like height and speed of rotation, adults, especially older adults, are automatically at a disadvantage. And it becomes *very* discouraging to adults to do elements really well for an adult skater, but then still get 0 or negative GOE because the element is not as good as a younger skater would be able to do it.

    Personally I would like to see a separate IJS-type marking system for adults that is more realistic about what adults are generally capable of.
  5. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    I think the problem is not so much a difference between adults and kids as that the system hasn't been designed with lower levels in mind, in general, and that there aren't standardized rules across federations as to how to adapt the elite system even for the middle levels (juvenile-novice).

    Most adults who started as adults are competing at levels at or below the equivalent of US juvenile, and the elite rules don't work all that well for those levels either.

    For both adults and lower level kids, I'd want to see the following adaptations:

    *Partial credit for moderately cheated jumps (the < as opposed to << designation) and benefit of the doubt as to rotation especially when there's no video replay. That change last year was necessary at all levels.

    Still, I have seen some adults who really don't get into the air at all and don't get half a rotation. It's not fair to the adult skaters who do get adequate rotation to call a little hop adequate for an adult. I don't know whether the example cited above was due to a group of adults who really couldn't jump at even adult bronze standard (or axels at silver standard), or a technical panel that was overly harsh. Both are possible explanations.

    But since double jumps called << do get the base mark of a single, maybe the compromise for << single jumps would be 0.1 base mark with minus GOEs in the hundredths of points. Same for intentional half-revolution jumps including waltz jump.

    Either that, or all half-jumps should be rewarded as transitions, whether or not they were intended as single jumps and also filled jump boxes.

    *Credit (base mark) for spins with at least 2 but less than 3 revolutions, especially camel spins, with -GOE as appropriate.

    *Fall deduction of 0.5 instead of 1.0, or maybe only 0.25 for prebronze/no-test levels.

    *Either a distinction between level 0 (meets the basic requirement of the element) and level 1 (one added feature) for calling spins and step sequences below juvenile/adult gold level. Or else a bullet point for judges to reward adequately performed added difficulty with positive GOE, before any reductions for errors if necessary. Including features like change of edge and change of direction in upright spins that are no longer rewarded at elite levels.

    *More lenient definition of sitspin position.

    As a bronze-level adult skater I've never had the opportunity to compete under any version of IJS. I'd much rather compete under a version adapted for lower levels than under the exact same rules as elite levels OR under 6.0, but 6.0 is the only option I've got where I live.

    I figure that my harder single jumps would be subject to underrotation calls and minus GOEs on all but my best day, in which case they might earn 0s. But I should be azble to consistently earn 0 for an easier jump like a salchow, so maybe, just maybe, I could earn a +1 by enhancing it with an unexpected entry and varied arm position in the air or something special with the landing.

    That's what a kid would need to earn +1 on a jump as well. And you don't see many that deserve it from the kids in no-test or prepreliminary competition either.
  6. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    I think there has always been these arguments that adults need to be treated differently because they are not going to have the same ability as the kids. Hey I have been part of this. When I started we didn't even have competitions for adults here so I really appreciate where things have come from. But there are adults out there who would take offence at the suggestion of applying different rules and then you get a group who would like adults to be given more consideration. You just can't win.

    I think going back to a 6.0 system, even for adults, is a step backwards in the sport. But being devil's advocate on this, firstly you need someone to develop a system for adults (which takes time and relies on a volunteer workforce to do it). And then you would have officials probably complaining about having to apply another set of rules to another group which they would have to learn (again takes time and you are rely on volunteers). And particularly when the majority of skaters are judged under the same system, that is what they are used to.

    And then like all skating judging, you will never ever get consensus or make everyone happy. Having been involved in email discussions with adult skaters regarding judging and the application of the current system, I know it has done my head in.

    I also think that the adult skaters who do skate up to what the system expects are going to be very happy with it. Those that can't for one reason or another are not going to be happy.
  7. overedge

    overedge Janny uber

    I agree that with adult skaters having such a wide range of variations of skill and previous experience, no one is going to be happy no matter what is done :) I also agree that IJS is a lot better for getting feedback rather than one number when it isn't always clear where that number came from. But that being said, I don't think it would require creating a whole new judging system to accommodate adult abilities. I think gkelly's suggestions are excellent - especially the sit spin one. I mean, come on, one year at Canadian adult nationals there were something like 20+ sit spins and only two got called at all. And these were good quality sit spins - a lot better than many younger skaters' attempts IMHO - but they weren't called simply because they weren't low enough. They weren't the half-knee bend with the arms reaching over, they were definitely sits, but they just didn't have the thigh parallel to the ice. There are a lot of other criteria that could be used to judge quality gradations in a sit spin rather than just ignoring the whole attempt because just one criterion wasn't met.

    When the standard is such that so many attempts don't get called, IMHO the problem is the standard, not what the skaters are doing.
  8. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    There are a lot of adult skaters who can perfectly fulfill IJS criterias. They are working to fit in the sport demand and they won't accept an adjustment on the system dedicated to lower levels.

    In adults as well as in young categories there are several competitive levels. This makes possible for each skater to compete with skaters of the same level. So, eventhough a spin is not well rewarded it won't make that much of a difference with the other skaters who will probably have the same deductions.
    And that doesn't concern only adults, it works the same for every ages categories.

    Also a judging system, especially the current one, is supposed to push the sport forward and not to reward something badly done. Most of adult competitive skaters go forward and train in a sportive way, they would consider an IJS adaptation as a step backward.

    The solution for skaters is to compete in the right category corresponding to their level. Often one sees skaters either going into a too high level category for their actual skills, probably because they have a wrong idea of their real level, or skaters who choose a lower category, probably because they expect to win easily.
    If skaters go into the right categories there is no feel of unfairness or of elements not judged fairly.
    A skater without a correct sit spin can win if he compets in the right category.

    I personnaly don't get the point of earning points for something badly done. I prefer to up the ante and get even more satisfaction when I get points rather than getting undeserved points.
  9. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    Great, but skaters do fall sometimes. You see them falling on elite level, why should we be any different? Even the jump that you can 'always' do sometimes doesn't work out, so why the price for that one mistake is erasing points from 2 other completely clean jumps? I am not advocating poor tries, I am just pointing out how a little mistake (one fall, or not finishing on time) can be costly. (unproportionately to the mistake, in my opinion).

    Also, the sit spin that is not acceptable now, has been acceptable for the last perhaps 30years. So even some World and Olympic champions did not have sit spins as low as it is needed now for it to be counted. (I am talking about sit spin that is low, but it is perhaps an inch or two 'too high'). Why would you expect from adults to be able to do it, if it has been acceptable even for those high level skaters to do it this way all those years? I do understand that they wanted to make it harder on the elite level, but with adults?

    Artifice, you say that you personnaly don't get the point of earning points for something badly done. You prefer to up the ante and get even more satisfaction when you get points rather than getting undeserved points. Hmmm, what about going back and checking whether all the champions in the past had sit spin low enough? If not, did they deserve their points? Maybe there was someone at their competition that time who had much better sit spin; they may have deserved more points! Pity that they don't know how poorly they have done!
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  10. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Overall, as Aussie willi said, there will always be unsatisfied people whatever the system is and you just can't win all.

    Because a fall is a fall and it affects the program the same way wether you do simple or triple jumps. Falls on triple jumps affect the score a lot as well and the risk taking on other elements at the highest level can cost a lot as well. The more difficulties, the more risk.

    Skaters under the 6.0 system did low sit spins. It's always been at lower levels that the sit position could possibibly not be reached.
    Under the IJS it is allowed to do intermediate positions, a not so low sit spin belongs in this category.
    The IJS has been designed to bring objectivity to technical elements. Therefore it was needed to set specific rules for each spin position. Previously it was criticized that the 6.0 system was not objective enough, now that it is objective, some people complain that the judgement is not nice with them. But a judgement is not supposed to be nice, it is supposed to be fair.

    Because adults can do it. Sportive people can do things. Not sportive people shouldn't do competition if they don't want to be judged fairly.

    The problem with the old system is that one actually never knew what counted and what didn't count in the program. At the time spins weren't given so much consideration, now spins are rewarded highly. And it is a chance for skaters, especially adult skaters who will always have difficulties to perform triple jumps, to get a chance to earn a lot of points with spins. Spins can be great with work, contrary to jumps that requires qualities much harder to get with age. So, if you work well on your spins you will have big points.

    The IJS fits adult skaters better than the 6.0 system because of the focus on elements other than jumps. You should take it as a chance to improve and earn (deserved) points.
  11. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

    Applauding Australian system. :cheer: Since program content is so harshly limited by level under the USFS adult system there really is no reason not to allow this.... Except loss in testing revenue and/or possibility of an adult with strong athletic skills "getting away" with poor edges, aka. skating skills, (as if jumps and spins on skates have noting to so with skating). (Sigh). But there you have it.

    :( Yup. :(

    P.S. If I ever skated under this system I'd definitely be one to take the Spiral Seq over the footwork any day.... Spirals very easy for me. Footwork, um, not so much....:rofl:

    Also, not sure why adults are so very concerned with quality... Kids do the items and then add the quality. You need a cake before you can put icing on it. No one lands perfect axels, does perfect flying camels etc. when they first do them. Sometime this takes years... Why not get the item, and then worry about the quality? I find this is one of the biggest problems with adult skaters and what really differs between them and the kids...
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  12. overedge

    overedge Janny uber

    You really don't get it, do you?

    You don't "do the item and then add the quality". If you are not doing the item correctly to begin with, the quality is not going to magically appear later on. And your characterization of adults as being too concerned about quality to actually do the "item" shows that you obviously haven't spent a lot of time with adult skaters.
  13. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

    Thanks for your reply. Thats what I thought. To me it seems perfectly natural that many adult skaters would be getting -goe for elements. I don't mean to offend anyone by that because I know there are many great adult skaters out there but I am recognising how difficult it is to get to that standard.

    Like you said there is no way to make everyone happy with the system. COP wasn't designed with lower levels in mind whether thats adults or children. In the UK most lower competitions still use 6.0. There are advantages and disadvantages to both.
  14. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

    No. I do not. :confused: If you mean I don't agree with you, then you are right. I don't.

    Are you kidding? No one does any skill with perfect quality the first time they try it. No one. That is what practice and repetition are for (under the guidance of a coach, of course.) :D

    Actually, I see quite a few of them doing the same items....Trying to get them "perfect"....And never trying anything different or more complicated, (except footwork), or falling on a few attempts at harder jumps and then going back to the "safe" items because they are not "perfect" yet. For some, (Yes, I said some. Not all. Some.) adults it is a convenient excuse not to risk getting hurt. Most kids do not do this. They land a double one day and have to be stopped from trying a triple the next. (Of course I am "generalizing" ...but most of you can recognize the truth in this statement.) There is a difference. Sometimes I think that the adults use the standard of "quality" or "perfection" to mask a fear of falling or getting hurt. (An understandable fear which in an adult can lead to major health problems, financial difficulties etc.) My problem is the attitude of adults that the quality is so gosh darned important. Get the item first, then worry about the quality. It is nice to say a high quality single loop is worth more to you than a sloppy double, but this is also a way to "hide" from the double. With this attitude, I guarantee you that you will never do one..... But it will make you feel better about yourself for doing the single and then putting down people who can do the double who may not hold up to your "quality" standard.
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2011
  15. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    I get your point. Some skaters hide themselves behind the mask of quality when they know they can't go for higher level elements.
    Actually it's normal to focus more on what can advantage us. For adult skaters quality on simplier moves are probably their best potential and this is right.
    But when this fact has or/and hides jealousis, it's unfair to critic higher level elements just in order to minimize the performance of those who can do them.

    That being said a minimum of quality is necessary to worth the try. Trying difficult things is ok but they should meet technical standards. If the result is a difficult move done without any technic nor quality, it's not worth much.
    And unfortunately this problem happens sometimes with adult skaters.

    Kids can do something not perfectly but they usually do quality technical tries, simply because they follow their coaches advises who most of the time give right advises.
    Adult skaters sometimes coach themselves and believe they do right when it's actually not right.
  16. overedge

    overedge Janny uber

    No, because it isn't true.

    Your problem is that you have a completely warped view of what skating is about, and that the rest of the world doesn't share your "attitude" - which is apparently the rest of the world's problem and not yours. You don't understand that doing a single jump well is important to being able to do a double and/or a triple well. And you also don't seem to understand that a "high quality single loop" *can* be worth more than a sloppy double. And if you think that adult skaters get their jollies from putting down skaters with more advanced moves than them - well, that's only more evidence of how little time you have actually spent around adult skaters.
  17. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    I think what Firefly is referring to is putting in elements that might not be quite right but they are in progress. Many skaters do this to test whether they can get the element in the program and give it a go because they have to do it some time, even if it isn't perfect.

    For example a skater might be working on a double salchow. The actual technique might be reasonable, but they do take their time getting into the jump, it might be small and the landing might pull around. However that is not to say the skater shouldn't try the jump. But after that they work on it, it becomes more consistent, does achieve better quality and the skater has more success with it.

    But I hear all sort of reasons from adults why they don't compete. One of the complaints is they want perfection. But it isn't a perfect world and I learnt a long time ago that I am never going to be perfect. I can only be the best I can be. So a skater who uses that as an excuse isn't going to get any sympathy from me.

    Whenever an adult skater tells me that they are not very good, I tell them that at least they are getting out there are doing it. And I always take the opportunity to compliment them on when they have improved on something, whether it be a jump, a spin or even a mohawk.
  18. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Totally agree with you Aussie willy.

    Going for competition takes guts and everyone who does that deserve respect. Those who said that they will compete when they have the moves perfectly right are hiding themselves and their fear or pride behind the quality mask. Those who compete also work on quality but they show their work at the same time.

    Agree about the fact to try an element in progress in competition. Nothing can be perfect at the very first try and there is always a first try.
    Also one shouldn't be too presomptuous and try something that is too far from the minimum quality standard.
    Double jumps are harder than simple jumps but a beautifull simple jump can also be harder to perform than a poor, sloppy underrotated double.
    Quality is not that easy to perform. Even, sometimes those who praise quality over everything else can't even perform the quality they are aiming at. Usually someone who does a simple element with high quality has the level to at least try a higher difficulty. But someone who tries a high difficulty move does not automatically manage to perform quality on a simplier element.

    There is a skater who has put some videos of her programs on internet. She tries double jumps but they are very sloppy, underrotated and done with bad technic. This skater was happy with her skate and did not understand why she received low scores. All her jumps were called as simple, she got deductions on her spins as well. And it was totally fair because obviously she did nothing at the minimum requested level. Clearly this skater has a wrong image of what she demonstrates and even of her real level which is not the one of double jumps but one of simple jumps not even quality ones.
    So, to say that it is important to have an objective view of what one does in reality.
  19. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

    I so agree! :D Actually, I meant what I said as a compliment. I think many of the adult skaters I see at the rink are actually capable of much more difficult items, but are so hung up on the "quality" issue or simply don't believe in themselves that they don't seem to progress as far as the could. :(

    I completely agree. In this case it is up to the skater/coach to choose whether or not to include more difficult (higher point) elements that are done poorly or to do the simpler items with more quality. That is an individual decision. Also, it depends upon the scoring system in place at the time. I have a video of the Olympics (2006?) where Scott Hamilton is commenting on Jeffery Buttle going for the quad even though he "knows he's gonna fall" but that if he makes the full 4 rotations it is worth some points....He fell, but rotated it. Got the bronze. :) USFS adult scoring system seems to reward quality overall, so maybe that strategy would be counterproductive for most adult skaters. I can't say. I skate ISI. ...... But you are right. If the skater is marked down,then they should be honest with themselves as to why. If I skated USFS I would throw in everything but the kitchen sink...Because that is my personality/philosophy etc....But if I came in last then I'd have to accept that because when you enter the competition you agree to be judged by that standard even if you don't like it.
  20. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    Again I agree with Artifice and Firefly on adults doing stuff that is beyond them and then not understanding why they don't get the marks.

    One adult commented to me about why she didn't get her axel counted when a coach had said to her that she had landed it. I told her that she had massive pre-rotation on the take off which meant she got no value for the element. I think sometimes skaters don't understand that is not just about landing the jump but the technique as a whole.
  21. overedge

    overedge Janny uber

    But this is not exclusively a problem with adult skaters. Using it as an excuse to bash adult skaters (not talking about your comments, Aussie Willy) is wrong, when younger skaters and their coaches and/or parents have the same problem.
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  22. Artifice

    Artifice Guest

    Yep ! One should be responsible for one's decision on elements put in the program.
    Honesty with oneself is important because, afterall, the adult skater is the one who cares the most about his/her result/improvment/skills.
  23. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    Oh it happens with everyone and I don't think anyone is using it as an excuse. Definately not just an adult skater issue.

    Although I have to say when it comes to obsessiveness over detail and analysis over judging, I have found it a lot more with adults than parents, coaches or kids. As long as you can explain it, the parents and kids are quite happy with what you tell them. But some adults I have encountered will argue non-stop on the smallest point. And I say this as an adult skater myself.
  24. Firefly123

    Firefly123 New Member

    Definitely. I was interested in this thread because,even though I don't skate USFS, it is fun to read what the other skaters think about the new spiral vs footwork sequence rules. Under ISI, for my level, I have to include one footwork sequence in the routine. :yikes: Spirals are optional. I wish it were the other way around since I would definitely be in the "spiral" camp, but then those are the rules... :rollin: (Not sure what the roll is for, but I like this emote, so I put it here. I guess it represents me rolling along the ice after tripping myself for the 1000th time on that darned footwork sequence.) ;)
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2011
  25. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

    I agree that we adult skaters (as well as kid skaters) should try to learn new elements instead of just perfecting the ones we can already do. However, I do *not* advise attempting a jump in competition if it is consistently underrotated or takes off from the wrong edge. I also don't think a skater should attempt a spin in competition of he/she cannot achieve a position that will get credit, hold it for enough revolutions, or execute it well enough to avoid getting -2 GOE. Attempting a difficult element that one cannot execute well enough for full value is going to result in a lower technical score than doing simpler elements that one can get full value for. It's just math, not fear or perfectionism. And BTW, I know plenty of adults who are not perfectionists. If I had a dollar for every axel that finished the last half turn on the ice or every sit spin that looked more like a slight squat. . .
  26. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    Maybe someone oughta tell that to Patrick Chan.


    This thread is honestly depressing. At 22, my coach thinks I could probably scrape into the regular competitions, but I know by the time I get my higher levels, I'll be Adult division.

    My spirals will never be perfect. I'll be lucky if they ever get above the level of my hip. I've never been naturally flexible and trying to become flexible from scratch at my age is hard yards. But learning that suddenly, the height of my free leg could make or break my score, even if it is above my hip, is extremely discouraging.

    I'm already at a disadvantage because I'm older. When I do my Aussie Skate tests, I'm automatically tested harder - because for anything involving a glide, the rule is you have to hold it for the length of your body, and most judges at my rink prefer two body lengths. A 22-year-old is much taller than a 7-year-old.

    I work hard. I work very hard. I spend every minute I can spare doing some kind of work towards my skating, whether that be stretching during class, cutting it fine to work from practice, or going to practice every day.

    I know I'll never be at the same level as I could have been had I started at 4. But I think I could never be as good as I am now, even at my low level, had I done that. I don't think I'd have been able to comprehend the amount of work, and taken it on so willingly, even two years ago.

    It's depressing to know there are judges out there who will automatically never give me a positive GOE because I'm an adult. It's depressing to know that there are judges out there who will call me on underrotation or edges even if I didn't, just because I'm an adult. And it's depressing to know there are people out there who think I can never be anything in this sport, just because I'm an adult. You may not have said it, but you're thinking it.

    But you know what? You can knock me down. I'll get back up. You score me badly, I'll try harder next time. I've fought too hard to get to this point, and I'll keep on fighting. If that means gritting my teeth and pretending a punching bag is a judge who'll never give me a positive GOE, so be it. My road may not lead to Sochi (as a skater at least), but I will control where it goes, and it's not going to the scrapheap.
  27. C_T_T_

    C_T_T_ Well-Known Member

    But a 22 year old will have much more power than than a 7 year old so so it is prefectly fair to expect you to cover more ice.

    Thats not what was said at all!!!! We are simply recognising how difficult it can be to get +GOE, no edge calls or underrotations. If you do it right, you'll get the credit.


    Again absolutely not true! Most of here are adult skaters. We skate because we love the sport no matter what level we skate at. I skated as a child and have recently returned to the ice. I know how difficult it is trying to get back to a simillar to where a left off. I can't imagine starting from scratch at this age and the complete respect for anyone who takes it up later in life. There is a lady at my rink in her seventies who skates twice a week. She doesn't leve the barrier much unless a coach is with her but I think she is one of the most amazing skaters out there. I only hope I can still have the nerve to do something I love when I'm that age.

    Good! For 99.9% of skaters out there, whether you start at 4 or 64, this is what its about. Only a tiny, tiny minority will make it to the top.
  28. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    At 22 in Australia you can skate in adult divisions if you choose. But it is your decision.

    However you are wrong to assume that judges don't give adult skaters positive GOEs. I have already made the point that judges will judge what they see. If a jump deserves a positive GOE the skater will get a positive GOE. If they don't they won't get it.

    But don't blame the judges when they can only judge what the skaters put out there.
  29. Doubletoe

    Doubletoe Well-Known Member

    I saw just snippets of your post in others' responses before reading the original post, and now that I've read it, I actually laughed because I thought you were my age! At 22, all this talk of being too old comes off just a tad dramatic. :lol:
    How is it that you have missed the many positive messages posted in this thread? I was never naturally flexible, either, but I did the splits for the first time at age 42, thanks to some determination and a consistent, correct stretching routine. That same year, I got a level 4 on my spiral sequence *with +GOE* in spite of my advanced "adulthood." :p I never get my jumps called as under rotated because they aren't. Then again, I don't put a jump in my program if my coach doesn't tell me it's fully rotated. The standards are the same for the adults and the kids. The kids get jumps called as underrotated, too!
    You are 22. There is nothing you are too old for, and the only thing holding you back is your own doubt. It just takes hard work and time. . . and you have time! :)
    Diane Mars and (deleted member) like this.
  30. jjane45

    jjane45 Active Member

    Natural fearlessness also matters, I am not likely to experiment the crazy footwork my friend puts together just for fun (or landing axels on his own without lessons). But yes, at age 22 there is really tons of time unless your goal is becoming an elite skater landing triple jumps. Add persistence and determination, there is your recipe for success!