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Chen vs Kwan- 96 Worlds

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by kuzytalent, Jul 19, 2013.

Who should have won 96 Worlds- Kwan or Chen

  1. Kwan

    97 vote(s)
  2. Chen

    141 vote(s)
  3. Slutskaya

    2 vote(s)
  1. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    I wouldn't have voted for Kwan based on the second mark BUT there was something awesome about the way she responded to Chen's marks. It was like you could hear her thinking, "Oh Hell no. I'm not losing this title." Thrilling.

    Incidentally, I felt the same vibe from Lipinski when she had to skate after Tanja at the 97/98 CSF. And funnily enough, I wouldn't have given Tara that win either. Now most of the skaters, even Yuna Kim, look terrified (or bored at best) before they skate.

    But both were deserving champions even if I didn't think they should have won those titles. I miss seeing skaters with that kind of attack. Witt had the same attack too. Those skaters are rare and were so under-appreciated during their prime.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2014
  2. tristanwirtz

    tristanwirtz Banned Member

    Kwan was the clear winner. The untalented Chen was the most overrated skater in skating history.
    jamesy and (deleted member) like this.
  3. tristanwirtz

    tristanwirtz Banned Member

    Chen was lucky to win her only world title too. Had Bobek fallen once instead of twice she would be the 1995 world champion for sure, and not Lu Chen. Had Markova skated a clean free program she also probably would have lost.
  4. tristanwirtz

    tristanwirtz Banned Member

    I can think of a ton better:

    1998 Olympics- Kwan and Lipinski
    1994 Challenge of Champions- Yamaguchi, Ito, Sato
    1991 Trophee Lalique- Yamaguchi, Ito
    1987 worlds- Witt, Kadavy, Thomas
    2007 grand prix final- Kim, Asada
    2010 Olympics- Kim, Asada
    2014 Olympics- Sotnikova, Kim, Kostner
    1997 worlds- Lipinski, Kwan, Slutskaya (LP only)
    2001 worlds- Kwan, Slutskaya
    2005 worlds- Slutskaya, Cohen
    2002 U.S Nationals- Kwan, Cohen

    I would probably pick 2014 Olympics as the best combined performances of a top 2 or 3 ever. IMO Kwan was better at the 98 Olympics than 96 worlds, and her artistry by 98 was a way higher level than 96, and yet she lost in 98 and won in 96, so that already shows clearly it wasn't even the best pair of performances by a top 2 Kwan herself was involved in, let alone of anyone.

    Kwan was never the best technical skater (I don't mean compared to technically defective Chen, but to everyone) and in 96 was not exactly a great artistic skater yet, so how can a competition she won when neither a top rate technical or artistic skater be the best pair of top 2 performances ever. Kwan has probably skated at a higher level about 20 times in her career than 96 worlds, but she didn't even need to be close to her best ever to beat Chen, a much inferior and less great skater.
  5. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Your opinion does not negate my opinion.
  6. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    Kwan was very tight and scared and it showed before she took the ice, during her performance and even in the kiss and cry. You could tell Frank knew she was in trouble by his body language and lack of enthusiasm (even for him) so I wouldn't count this as a better performance than 1996 when she owned the ice and stomped out there demanding the gold. The program wasn't as strong as Salome either.

    Ito was awesome (and then followed it up with that godawful Little Mermaid program that made me want to vomit) and Yamaguchi was very good but not perfect. I don't remember Sato but by virtue of Yamaguchi's flawed skate, where even some clean jumps were tight that you saw her step out happening a mile away. GREAT for a pro competition but not in the same league as Kwan and Chen's performances of their lifes.

    Yeaaaah. Yamaguchi's huge splat in the free and Ito's sloppy step out on her axel in the short was a competition for the ages.

    Haven't watched it in ages but I remember it being very exciting. Still the idea of Thomas challenging Lu Chen or Kwan on the second mark is funny. Wanda Beezle was more graceful sometimes.

    Kim was spectacular but Asada didn't skate her best in the long. She had errors and broke down in tears afterward explaining she was more disappointed by her performance than not winning gold.

    Good God. Kostner looked terrified in the long and skated like a snail for the first time ever. Yuna looked like she wanted that skate back before her marks came up, or maybe she just wanted a new audience. Sotnikova? Don't get me started.

    I thought all three were wonderful, but Lipinski skated that program better that season, Kwan had one error and only opened up to the audience late in the program. She probably beat Tara by virtue of skate order and being reigning world champ. Slute's much maligned long program all year suddenly became a masterpiece in the eyes of Kwan fans wanting her to change the standings. I loved Slute's long program. It was like a burrito at Taco Bell. You know it's not the greatest quality but you still secretly enjoy the hell out of it while pretending to hate it in front of the cool kids.

    Kwan was divine. Slute was a hot mess.
    Say what??? Slute and Cohen were held up shamefully in the short program, and Kostner and Kwan got robbed.
    Kwan was the best hands down but wasn't she not perfect herself? I thought she flubbed her 3/3? Cohen's long program was empty. She hired a real choreographer after that season. She wasn't perfect either and as Dick Button called it, "fell apart at the end."
    Andora likes this.
  7. tristanwirtz

    tristanwirtz Banned Member

    The program wasn't as strong as Salome!??! What are you on. Lyra Angelica was Kwan's all time great program. It got almost all 6.0s at Nationals. Salome would have never done that. Kwan was stronger in 98 than 96, and even her Olympic skate which wasn't her absolute best was stronger than 96 as she was just a stronger skater by then. Yet she lost in 98 and won in 96. Easy to see the top 2 of 98 is stronger than 96.

    I forgot Kristi missed her 2nd triple lutz. Just say Ito and Sato then as those were the top 2. I prefer both of them to Kwan and Chen from the 96 worlds. Yamaguchi's 3rd place skate at that event is far above Irina's in Edmonton too.

    Who cares about short programs, it is obvious we are just talking about the long skates. Chen's short at these worlds was nothing great, and nearly lost to Slutskaya, and nowhere near Kwan. It is obvious people talking about how great the top 2 were are only talking about the longs. Ito had she just put her foot down on the triple axel barely like the short of this event probably would beat Chen in the short of the Edmonton worlds too.

    Fine just Witt and Kadavy then. I know Thomas technically won silver but that is only since she was way higher in figures and some bad judging.

    Asada even with the 2 mistakes is technically miles beyond Chen even at her best. So much more jump difficulty, far better spins (Kwan had much better spins than Chen, and Asada's are far above Kwan's), much better footwork and spirals, more speed. Asada also has very nice artistry, although her Tarasova programs were her worst ever.

    Again what are you on. Kostner skated the finest performanes of her outstanding career full of excellent performances. She is technically superior to Kwan, and much superior to Chen, while also having amazing unmatchable skating skills and gorgeous style and lines. That she only won bronze already says it all.

    Again short programs don't matter obviously, otherwise we wouldn't even be talking about Chen from 96 worlds. So I am only looking at long programs.
  8. tristanwirtz

    tristanwirtz Banned Member

    No, but that Kwan as a much stronger skater in 98 lost, when she won in 96, pretty much overrules it. I don't have to, the judges already did.
  9. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    Really? I must have missed the competition where the judges judged Kwan's 1996 and 1998 routines against one another.
  10. tristanwirtz

    tristanwirtz Banned Member

    They don't have to. Anyone with a brain knows Kwan was a much better skater in 98 than 96 despite being excellent already in 96. And that Lyra is a far more legendary and artistically stratospheric program than Salome. Just look at all the people in this thread who are saying she should have lost to the technically defective Chen based on artistic scores, while Lyra was a 6.0 magnet. Meanwhile Kwan was also technically stronger by 98, much improved spirals, more difficult spins, and 2 triple lutzes and 2 triple loops. Her triple lutzes were much higher too.

    Also ask yourself how would Chen from 96 worlds done in Nagano? Still pretty obvious only the bronze medal.
  11. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    These weren't rivalries though. Or at least not close ones. The winners in both cases were clear and undisputed. Cohen wasn't even a real title contender in both examples - especially with the little mishaps she made, both times.

    I would add though that Slutskaya at that 2005 Worlds free skate was so sloppy that no amount of technical break-through or personal triumph would make me enjoy watching it. I am very happy for her come back though - I just wish it was with a more convincing skate.
  12. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Was 96 even really a rivalry though. I know people like to think it was close, but while it was 6-3, every judge but 1 had Kwan .2 or .3 ahead of Chen. Kwan also won the short program 8 judges to 1. Chen had to skate better than she ever did, and even as defending champion wasn't even really close to beating Kwan who just skated like she does 75% of the time. Kwan even had better skates that year- Skate America, U.S Nationals. That was the last time Chen was even in the ballpark with Kwan, and only time after 95. I never imagined Chen could really beat Kwan at those worlds, even after her great skate, I was pretty sure Kwan would win.
  13. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    More convincing? What else do you want? I'm a Kwan fan too, as I know you are, big time, and I've never cared for Irina, but that was a spectacular skate. Why not just say she isn't your kind of skater instead of saying something so silly like it wasn't convincing? :rofl:
    gotoschool likes this.
  14. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    I already said her win was clear and undisputed. What else do you want? :p

    When I said "convincing", I meant a more confident skate. Everyone was excited about that performance because it was at home and she was recovering from a huge illness (and that's impressive) but to me she clearly slouched through the last 1/3 of that skate after she went past that point where she knew she had done enough to win. Perhaps it was her medical condition - I don't know, but the overall impression for me is that it wasn't a convincing skate. I wasn't impressed with the skate itself (if it wasn't for the story behind it).

    When she won 2002 Worlds, she did so with very convincing skates, regardless of how much I did (do) not care for her style. Even earlier in 2005 and in 2006, she had delivered far more convincing skates (to win far less important titles).
  15. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    Thanks for clarifying, Marco!
  16. Marco

    Marco Well-Known Member

    I must say I have weird taste when it comes to Slutskaya. I liked her programs in 1999, her short in 2001, 2003 and 2005, and her free in 1998 but otherwise am quite lukewarm towards them... And for everyone who picks on her line, I love her pre-COP layback.
  17. cbd1235

    cbd1235 Well-Known Member

    Oh boy, tons of stupidity above. No.1 Chen has never and will never be artistically deficient, her FS in 1996 was particularly haunting and beautiful. No.2 yes Lyra is a better program than Salome, but '98 Olympics was not a better skate than '96 worlds. She skated above herself at '96 worlds and below herself at '98 Olympics. Many of the other Lyra performances were a different story (e.g. nationals). It's silly to think that any clean performances of a program in a season are equal to each other...there's so much more than landing jumps. No.3 boy oh boy there were a lot of mediocre performances in your list of "a ton better than the Kwan/Chen '96 matchup". Those were already debunked above so I won't go into it. No.4 no one is comparing what Kwan/Chen did to what skaters today are doing...what they were comparing is how perfectly and equally matched Kwan/Chen were at those worlds. In other words, it was a tight race without an absolute clear winner, and both skated flawlessly landing all their jumps with quality and quality skating throughout. It is true to say that a free skate matchup like that has almost never been replicated in the years since.

    I don't understand the big hate-on for Chen..I mean you basically just went through the past decade or two and said "this skater is better than Chen, and this skater had higher technical difficulty, and this skater even with a bunch of mistakes was so much better, and yadda yadda". Doesn't mean Chen and Kwan weren't in a tight race between EACH OTHER in 1996, which is what we're discussing after all.
    Vash01, kwanette and (deleted member) like this.
  18. radiatesglow

    radiatesglow New Member

    I voted Kwan. Chen was always pretty boring to me. I never got the hype about her. People talk about her as some all time great when she managed only 1 big title, and that one only when the favorite fell all over the ice.
  19. DreamSkates

    DreamSkates Well-Known Member

    Kwan. Chen's performance was wonderful but the judges gave Kwan the edge. I'm good with that. Since at this point in time it doesn't matter.
  20. hirtmoles31

    hirtmoles31 Active Member

    Chen should have won easily. Technically they were about the same, and on presentation Chen was atleast .2 better that night. Lets face it, even those who are picking Kwan know what would have happened if Chen were an American and Kwan was not.
    gotoschool likes this.
  21. VIETgrlTerifa

    VIETgrlTerifa Well-Known Member

    If Chen had an American advantage and Kwan didn't, then Chen would have won and all the people who thought Kwan should have won would be making the same flimsy claims you just made. Kwan would probably have more supporters than she does now because I think some people are swayed by rooting for the "loser" of the competition.
  22. gotoschool

    gotoschool Well-Known Member

    For what it's worth since a lot of opinions are better than one even if they are anecdotal, I tallied the results of a poll at goldenskate for the following Ten programs the rest of your life which would you choose:

    1. Michelle Kwan Lyrica Angelica 12 Nationals and other
    2. Mao Asada Rochmaninoff 2 1st movement 9 Sochi
    3. Chen Lu Rochmaninoff 2 2nd movement 5 Worlds 1996
    4. Kostner Bolero 5 Sochi
    5. Sasha Cohen Romeo and Juliet 5 2006
    6. Oksana Bauil Swan Lake 4 1994 Olympics
    7. Yulia Lipnitskaya Schindler's List 4 Team Olympics or Europeans

    There were about 36 people who gave their lists on this thread. Notice that in this poll, Chen has more votes than Kwan for 1996 Worlds, though Kwan wins overall for Lyrica Angelica. In my opinion, both Kwan and Chen skated exceptionally that night, but I preferred the aristry, skating skills and overall elegance of Chen more than Kwan. Kwan's energy level and charima was a little more manifest, so maybe this made a difference for the judges. As judgjudy said, Kwan was way ahead after the short (8-1) so maybe that made the difference too. I find Chen's freeskate here to be truly impressive and quite emotional for me. Personally, I like skaters that are not as demonstrative artistically and more subtle, so that is probably why I liked Chen better that night.
    I also picked Chen for the victory overall.

    Many consider Chen's skate here to be truly great, but then there are these comments:
    giselles23- Not sure how this thread came back to life, but I think Michelle is the definite winner because she always faced weak competition.
    and even more so
    The untalented Chen was the most overrated skater in skating history

    These almost seem comical in their mean-spiritedness. Maybe they are meant to be funny in some strange way. I won't take the bait and get irrate. But, just a touch of diplomacy or respect would be nice.
  23. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Yuzuru, Medvedeva, T&M, Shibs, P&C

    I often agree with you but this time I have to totally disagree with you. Regardless of how the judges placed them it was a very close competition. Michelle was better technically and Chen was better artistically. Her performance was mesmerizing and sophisticated. Michelle skated young (she was just 15 so it was understandable). Michelle won the GPs with her consistent jumps. Chen struggled throughout the season, so I don't think many people expected her to skate well at worlds, but she did, and her skate was good enough to win. I am not saying she was robbed, but I would have gone for her sophistication rather than Michelle's 'lady' like external appearance (and I am a big Michelle fan). After Chen received two 6.0's it was hard to believe she would lose that competition. IMO Michelle did not really deserve the two 6.0's she got. She did have one more triple, but to me the overall performance belonged to Chen.
  24. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Well in terms of my own assessment of the skating at this event I agree with you, but my point is the judges didn't seem to think it was close. A 6-3 split sounds close but 5 of the 6 who had Kwan ahead had her ahead by .2 or .3 and most judges even gave her a higher presentation mark (5 had her higher and 2 tied, and 1 or 2 had her .2 higher) in addition to her obvious technical edge (in most peoples opinion, and even morso to the scores). Most of the judges had Chen as far from Kwan (or further) as Slutskaya from Chen. So it seems the judges did not view as a close decision at all, and yet this was the closest competition they ever had after 95 so it doesn't seem to the two ever had much of a rivalry, not even at this event.
  25. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    It can't affect the marks, since Michelle deserved a better 1st mark, and in fact, she also deserved a better or equal 2nd mark. Michelle Kwan had a very good program, with intricate and complex choreography, more than Lu Chen's.
    And at this time, it was a Presentation mark, not an Artistic mark, IIRC.
    Anyway, I loved both, and Lu Chen's LP is still one of the program I watch and rewatch. Fabulous program. ;)
  26. Karpenko

    Karpenko Not Impressed.

    I think Michelle had a more difficult program, more connecting steps, more use of running edges, more content.

    I enjoyed Chen's program and style of that program in general, I think it was a 6.0 performance and the interpretation was as engaging as anything you'll ever see. Unpredictable movement, full range of emotion, sensitivity, passion, class, she was one with her music. And I have always adored that dress.

    Michelle's choreography really helped her when comparing the two, Chen's was also phenomenal but you couldn't knock Michelle at all when comparing the two. I don't think Michelle's authentic presence and super-strong interpretation came until the following year. Since she outperformed Chen technically, I think Michelle's great choreography was enough to put her over the edge and it was a deserved win overall IMO. I think with weaker choreography by Michelle (by far her best program ever at that point) wouldve swayed more judges to go a tenth lower on presentation. It was a fully complete program with 7 cleanly executed triples.

    Really would've preferred Chen's skate to win an OGM over every single OGM we've ever had in ladies, interpretation would've been a 10 for me with PCS. Hers felt more like an Olympic program to me, could've gone either way. Preferred Chen but I do think Michelle did enough to edge a win.
    Last edited: Aug 16, 2014
    snoopy likes this.
  27. BmcC102

    BmcC102 Active Member

    I voted for Kwan, but Chen was truly spectacular as well. Kwan's more difficult choreography, spins, and extra triple give her the technical edge.

    Kwan: 5.9/5.9
    Chen: 5.7/6.0
  28. giselle23

    giselle23 Well-Known Member

    That was sarcastic--in response to those who claim that Michelle won so many titles because she had little or no competition in her era! Sheesh!

    ETA: And you forgot to quote the smiley emoticon.
  29. giselle23

    giselle23 Well-Known Member

    Does anyone else really believe this? Didn't Chen win Worlds in 1995 while a flawless Michelle finished off the podium?
  30. fenway2

    fenway2 Well-Known Member

    Kwan wasn't the top US dog at worlds; Bobek was. Chen was the only dog from China, so to speak. Chen had to compete against Kwan, Kerrigan and Harding. Then when they retired, Bobek came "out of nowhere" to win the short program at worlds after not qualifying the year before. After Bobek struggled: enter Kwan as the top contender. Once Kwan struggled: enter Lipinski. Chen battled many Americans over the years. The US had an uncanny ability back then to throw a newbie on the world scene and watch them snatch medals over veteran skaters. There was always a fresh face emerging. 1995 belonged to Bobek. She just didn't rise to the occasion that others before her or after did.