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Can Radford & Duhamel close the gap on the top pairs?

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Maofan7, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

    New article on Duhamel & Radford. Reads:-

    They will need to improve considerably to overtake Savchenko & Szolkowy, and Volosozhar & Trankov. However, they missed the bronze medal at 2012 Worlds by just 4.29 points when finishing 5th. Hence, they are certainly in with a chance of winning bronze at next years Worlds. Moreover, if S&S and/or V&T slip up, its not beyond the realms of possibility that they could finish higher than that.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  2. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    Not on V/T or S/S, but a bronze medal position is certainly a possibility. Massive base value helps.
  3. DaveRocks

    DaveRocks Wheeeeeeee!

    I really admire and enjoy Meagan and Eric. Best of luck to them this season!
  4. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    They will not overtake V/T or S/S unless V/T or S/S have one bad competition but not because D/R are a better team. They need to dump the jumps they can't do. High base value is great but if you stumble and all on almost every one and give up GOE points-it's not worth it. They were lucky with the grand prix comps they were given so they will have no trouble getting medals and into the GPF.
  5. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    V/T and S/S will go 1-2 in one order or another in every competition up to and including Sochi IMO. After that, or after the 2014 Worlds depending if both go there, it will open up a bit more. It will be interesting if V/T continue or not, especialy if they dont win Sochi gold. I fully expect if they dont win Sochi gold they will continue, but if not it will be a toss up. I expect S/S to be done at that point whether they win Sochi gold or not. Even if V/T continue past 2014 I expect that is when they would start to be challenged by up and coming teams.

    For the time being the bronze is the only position on the podium I see anyone able to fight for, and I definitely think R&D can achieve that. They would have won the bronze at Worlds last year had they skated cleanly.
  6. victoriajh

    victoriajh trying to ignore rod and find the eurosport feed

    i really enjoy watching megan and eric- i would love to see them on the world podium- i really thought they might do it last year!!!
  7. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    I don't know if I would be so bold as to say that, there as too many good teams out there and both S/S and V/T are too prone to mistakes. I think 99% of competitions since there aren't going to be many more, but I would be afraid to say all.

    The same could have been said for most of the top teams at Worlds last year. It was a bad year for mistakes.
  8. DaveRocks

    DaveRocks Wheeeeeeee!

    They both can do all of the triples, except the axel, of course. They don't stumble and [f]all on almost every one. :confused:

    I'd argue that their best shot for the bronze is with the harder triples. (It's amazing what SBS 3Z or 3F do for one's PCS marks, oddly enough.)
  9. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Define "doing" all the triples? They barley landed most of their jumps last season; and the four 3S and the one 3T they did land only got them 2.80 points TOTAL for the whole season. (I didn't count the WTT but they had a messy combo as well; but a good 3S in the free. He fell in the short)

    They are trying too much difficulty like the 3Lz+2T+2T and the 3F and can't perform them very well. So instead of lowering the difficulty and landing the jumps-they continue to falter, even in competitions earlier this season. I would rather see them try a 3S+2T+2T instead of looking messy.

    And that doesn't even count the mistakes on the throws. They are just really great skaters, that is where the good PCS scores come from, they are great to watch, when they land on their feet.

    Short 3S 0.20
    Free 3Lz+2T+2T<< -2.00 (+2 falls), 3S 0.90

    Short 3T 0.90
    Free 3Lz<+2T+2T -0.50

    Short 3S -1.10
    Free 3Lz -2.10 (+fall), 3S+SEQ 0.60

    Short 3S -0.30
    Free 3Lz+2T+1T -1.10, 3S -1.90 (+fall)

    Short 3Lz -2.10 (+fall)
    Free 3F+1T+2T -1.70, 3S 0.20
  10. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    I'm guessing that they think in order to challenge for gold and silver rather than "just" bronze, they want to put the harder triples in the programmes. They need to keep trying them in competition to get the pratcie at them and hopefully start hitting. If they stick to the easier triples the other pairs are doing then the know their best will be bronze. I don't blame them for trying the harder triples.
  11. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    I don't think so. I admire and appreciate them - Megan is very tough and spunky - but don't think they have either the 'wow' factor or the technical competence. Pairs does seem to have a gap at the top at the moment. To me they are in a similar league with Denny and John C, though perhaps D&R are the better team. To me both pairs are physically not a great match and lacking in elegance. There is V/T and S/S, then everyone else. P/T are in decline I think - I love them and wish they could just marry and get on with life, but figure the Chinese Fed must have pressured them to stay in.

    I think it is more likely that Takahashi and Tran will vie for bronze, or that a few new pairs will move up the ranks.
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  12. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    1. But I don't think they're unable to catch S/S and V/T because of the jump errors. They're unable to because their GOEs aren't comparable nor are their PCS. Their LP at Nationals scored 128 and change, whereas a flawed S/S will score 130+ internationally (the difference would be greater, obviously, were the competitions both international).

    2. So the question, for me, isn't will they catch those two teams, but can they make a run for bronze. And yes, I think they can. And I think the base value they get for their jumps helps. They're up against teams that are likely to screw up the side-by-side jumps as it is - Kavaguti/Smirnov, Bazarova/Larionov, Takahashi/Tran, Pang/Tong, even Denney/Coughlin - and they all go for the easier ones. Given how many times they screwed up the salchow, I can see their logic in going for the harder elements.
  13. kirkbiggestfan

    kirkbiggestfan Well-Known Member

    An acting coach is good, but how about ballet training for her to match his great lines. :lol:
    You can act all you want but you are being compared to Aliona and Tatiana.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
    triple_toe and (deleted member) like this.
  14. aidan

    aidan Active Member

    I don't agree with that. Sure, if they skate well, or even decently, they should finish 1-2, however, S/S have demonstrated the ability to fall apart on a number of occasions and V/T have underperformed a few times too. Plus, there is always the wildcard factor, where another team can overpeform at the right moment (see P/T at the 2010 Olympics).

    Yes, the bronze is up for grabs for some of the teams ranked 5-10, but at this time the judges still favour P/T and K/S, and perhaps even T/T, who may get the PCS 'bump' associated with getting a World medal. All of these teams would have to make major mistakes (which is certainly very possible) to give up the podium spot to any of D/R, B/L, S/H, D/C, unless these teams up their technical difficulty levels.
    Last edited: Oct 24, 2012
  15. Finnice

    Finnice Well-Known Member

    As much I like them, especially Megan, it is hard to see them win over S/S and V/T this olympiad. But I never saw T/T to take the World bronze either, and I love surprises in figure skating. Megan is one of my favourite female pair skaters, and Eric compliments her well. I would live to see them in World podium anyway!
  16. DaveRocks

    DaveRocks Wheeeeeeee!

    "Doing all the triples": Meagan and Eric are able to land all of the SBS triples (except axel) quite nicely. This, obviously, doesn't always mean they'll land them successfully in competition. I've watched them practice on numerous occasions -- it's quite exciting, especially their SBS 3T-3T (which won't be attempted in competition).

    Meagan and Eric "got" A LOT more than 2.80 points for their SBS jumps over the entire season! :lol: You can't ignore the base values, like you did. In the short programme at Skate Canada, for instance, they "got" 4.6 points for their SBS 3S, not 0.9 points.

    I don't have time (nor particularly care) to do all the math now (packing for Skate Canada -- wheeeeee!), but I think that Meagan and Eric are smart to keep trying the harder SBS triples. Harder SBS triples = more base value = possibility for more points.
  17. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    P/T are very different than any of the pairs now outside of S/S and V/T now though. P/T always had World class credentials, even before the 2010 Olympics. There were a large number of teams with World class credentials who were in or close to their primes then, even if Shen & Zhou and Savchenko & Szolkowy were supposed to be the favorites. Today there is no team outside V/T and S/S at that level even if they have a "great" competion. P/T are old and clearly past their primes. Kavaguti is clearly past her best too. Then outside those teams who is the most accomplished one remaining, Takahashi & Tran with a surprise World bronze, Sui & Han with a couple World junior titles. Basically all the other top teams are a couple old near retirement ones and a bunch of up and coming ones developing and improving.
  18. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Which unfortunately is where it counts.

    I didn't ignore the base value; I only looked at what the judges gave and by what I posted the judges weren’t really enamored with the jumps they did do well giving it less than 0.90 for thier best jump.

    They can certainly try; it may win them a medal and it may cost them a medal, just like harder elements cost K/S a world silver medal twice in 2009 and 2010.
  19. skatak

    skatak Well-Known Member

    I think they can. I hope they will.
  20. aidan

    aidan Active Member

    I agree that S/S and V/T are the class of the field and will win if they are clean, even with a few mistakes. My point was that there are too many ifs, ands or buts to say these teams will place 1-2 in every competition leading up to Sochi. That's two years away!

    Both teams have shown the ability to completely bomb. Just last year, S/S lost to T/T and K/S, and T/T didn't have World class credentials at that time (now they do with their World bronze).

    Also, S/H have scored over 200 points in a competition, so I'm not sure how you can say they aren't a threat. And once they recover from their injury, they are likely going to get even better!

    And in the past, lots of people have written off P/T and Kawaguchi (and others like S/Z, Plushenko, Lysachek, Asada, etc, etc) due to age or injury, but all have come back to win major championships, so these teams have the potential to be spoilers.

    And while we all want these skaters to stay in good health, injuries could be a factor, particularly for Szolkowy who isn't young either. Look what happened to Zhao in 2006...
    Last edited: Oct 25, 2012
  21. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    You have your opinion, I have mine. We will see in 18 months who was right.

    I totally disagree on Sui & Han. First off their scores at Four Continents were a joke, and scoring at Four Continents is often a joke. Secondly I dont see them only getting better, I think once she grows anymore they will be lucky to continue as a pair, never mind doing the quadruple revolution maneuvers they are doing now.
  22. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

    Watching the Skate Canada practices and seeing Duhamel/Radford side by side with Savchenko/Szolkowy, it's clear they S/S are miles ahead of them. D/R's skating skills in no way compare to S/S, they seem to work for every jump/throw/crossover and their skills don't have nearly the same amplitude or ease. All of their elements are sloppily done. They have to go for the big tricks IMO because it's the only way to try to close the gap, but I still can't see them overtaking S/S or Volosozhar/Trankov anytime soon even if clean, barring disaster or injury to those pairs.
  23. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    You're right about the scores at 4CC.

    But, even at Worlds had they not biffed that lift they would have been 3rd in the free and 4th overall. But her injuries concern me and I really don't see them as a pair in the future.
  24. Proustable

    Proustable New Member

    aidan, I think the injuries to Sui/Han are the type that it would be massively difficult to recover from, and they were always an iffy prospect for the future anyway.
  25. Lil Sarah

    Lil Sarah Active Member

    I feel like D & R taking out their hard triples is the equivalent to telling a male skater not to put in the quad because he might mess it up and fall. You can't get any better without taking risks. If that means finishing lower for some competitions in order to get the jumps consistant, then so be it. D & R know their best chance to win a medal in the future is their big skills. Their big skills aren't going to happen if they don't put them in for all of the competitions. Good on them!
  26. Cherub721

    Cherub721 YEAH!

    This article about them was posted in the SC forum. It says they've hired an acting coach. That's awesome.

    They are one of those teams that although I don't really like their skating, I like them. They're very scientific in their approach. If something is lacking, they try to fix it instead of whining or giving up.
  27. aidan

    aidan Active Member

    Good point about the growth and age. That could definitely hurt them in the future. Having said this, even with their 4CC scores, which ITA were inflated, the judges still seem to give them a lot of respect, as shown by Julieann's point below. If S/H can survive puberty, we'll see if they follow suit.

    Again, I agree with you that S/S and V/T will likely dominate over the next two years, as they are the class of the field.

    My initial point was simply that there are other factors to consider that may prevent that from happening, which I outlined in my previous post. With both teams demostrating the ability to fall apart periodically, there may be a few competitions (maybe even some important ones!) where they don't finish top of the podium. There are some lesser teams out there that could sneak ahead of them with an outstanding skate where their technical mark could overcome any PCS deficiences.

    I'm also someone who was convinced Jordyn Weiber was a lock to win an individual all-around medal in London (although I thought gold was unlikely), so I guess we will see what happens over the next two years!
    Last edited: Oct 26, 2012
  28. geoskate

    geoskate Well-Known Member

    It appears that the answer to the thread title is 'Yes', since D/R established an ISU personal best in the short program at this competition, and S/S didn't.

    Also I'll point out that the thread title asks if they can ""close the gap" on S/S and V/T, not if they can surpass them. I don't think anyone expects them to surpass S/S and V/T before Sochi.
  29. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    I enjoy Megan's and Eric's skating very much, and I'd love to see them on the podium at Worlds. However, just because they scored a PB in the sp at SC and S/S didn't really doesn't mean much from competition to competition. S/S don't need to score a PB every time they skate in order to beat D/R.

    What difference does it make? D/R are definitely in the running to battle for the podium at every competition they enter. And S/S look very impressive in their sp debut this season.
  30. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    It will be very difficult for older teams to beat their old season's best since they got rid of one of the elements. They're already 5+ points in the hole.