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Calling flip and lutz jumps

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Triple Butz, Apr 27, 2012.

  1. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    It's only the case if you switch to the other edge at the last moment. But for most skaters, the Flutz is just a Flip (Mao Asada or Alena Leonova, for example). ;)
  2. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Go for it plzzzzzz :D
  3. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    The jump has to be called on the intention. You do not call it on what actually happens. Doing a lutz of an inside edge is bad technique for that jump.
  4. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Yes, but it's not about the preceding movements (which are entirely up to the skaters' choosing).

    On the lutz, you skate in the direction opposite to that of the rotation, on the flip you skate in the same direction as the rotation.

    Even if a skater enters from a three-turn, there is a moment where you skate in the opposite direction.

    That's what makes the difference crucial and the lutz much harder.
  5. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

    Regardless of the rules I think there should be requirements that a lutz be preceded by a clear counter rotation prior to the takeoff on an outside edge.

    If you are allowed to have the same entrance for a lutz and a flip and it's only the edge that matters then there is no case for an 'e' call; if you are on outside edge it's a lutz...inside edge it's a flip.
    What's worse, in a case like that, if you do 3 jumps that end up coming off the same edge then I would make the last one worth 0. If you're boiling it down to the edge only then you just did 3 flips or lutzes and that is that. Perhaps the only e call could be that you had either no edge or not a clear enough edge although in the right direction. If you clearly flip over onto the wrong edge that should be an egregious error and penalized.

    So, I prefer the clear distinction about the rotation into the jump so you are demonstrating clear intent of a certain jump. Based on the rotation into the jump you would either be credited properly or an 'e' could be properly applied. With this approach there is no justification for a '0' which is better for the skaters.
  6. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    Well, if the jump is immediately preceded by steps and turns, especially turns in both directions, and the final edge before the jump is very short, then the intention could be ambiguous and it would make sense to call the jump based entirely on the edge of the blade at takeoff.

    However, if there's a sustained glide and at most one turn in the few seconds immediately preceding the jump, then there's plenty of time to establish counterrotation -- or not -- to establish the intention, in which case that's what should be called. With an edge call if the blade doesn't follow through on that intention all the way until takeoff.
  7. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    What do you mean by a "clear counter rotation"? It's the outside edge that gives the jump its counter rotation. How do you have one but not the other?
  8. Rock2

    Rock2 Well-Known Member

    In theory your question is valid...but these lutzes that come out of a traditional flip entrance have very little of either (edge or counter rotation) in my mind. They seem to rotate into the jump with perhaps only a slight crossover to the outside edge

    So maybe I reword to "clear counter-rotation and outside edge" or something...
  9. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    It is also the way the shoulders work. Skaters need to get a strong check in their shoulders in order to get on the outside edge.
  10. 5Ali3

    5Ali3 Active Member

    [on preview: I'm not sure this is a great explanation, if you learn kinesthetically, as I do, it might be somewhat interesting, so I'm going to post it despite not being a great exercise. This is something that I used to do off-ice and will still occasionally do when really bored while waiting in line at the grocery store. There is significant variation in flip/Lutz technique and this is based on what I did, which resembles but may not replicate what I was taught :lol: so YMMV and someone else may have a different way to describe this.]

    To expand on what AussieWilly said:
    I'm going to pretend everyone who wants to try this at home would jump CCW; if you are inclined to be a CW jumper, just reverse L and R. For reference, straight in front of you is 12:00, 90 degrees to your right is 3:00, 180 degrees 6:00, etc.

    Try this: stand with all of your weight on your left leg. Extend your right leg directly behind your right hip (realistically: 5:00); ideally, your right foot is about maybe six inches off the ground, but it's hard to hold that position when static, so touch the toes of your right foot to the ground, but try not to put much weight on them. Okay, if your shoulders are square, rotate your upper body - without moving your hips! - so that your left shoulder is in front of your core (11:00) and your right shoulder is behind your core (5:00), with your right arm kinda over your right leg (it's not that extreme, but it's the idea). Keep twisting L upper body and R upper body clockwise: aim for 1:00 and 6:00 with those arms! Keep twisting your upper body! Don't move your hips! You should feel tension in your shoulders and chest as you are twisting: tension in your hips as you struggle to keep them square-ish (remember! you're standing on your leg leg only!) and they want to rotate clockwise with your shoulders. But they don't get to rotate, just the upper body. As you're twisting, the arms can rotate further than the shoulders, curving CCW from the shoulder joint.

    Okay, now stand on your left leg and extend your right leg behind you, same as before (square, no weight on your right leg even if you need to touch your right toes to the floor to stay balanced). Your left arm and shoulder should be in line about, oh, 11:00, right arm and shoulder about, maybe, 5:00? (I'm a bit less certain about this one, because I had a tendency to start rotating the upper body early, so on a double, my arms were usually about 10:00 and 4:00, and on a triple, 9:00 and 3:00. Note: I do not recommend this technique unless you prefer insanely hard falls to standing up: it's pretty much a recipe for failing to obtain the proper axis in the air, and the falls HURT because there's no chance to check the rotation with the shoulders rotated so far ahead of the hips. Please note that the fact that I know this does not mean that I was ever able to consistently change the technique... especially in competition. :rolleyes: ) Back at the ranch, er, floor ice rink, your arm should extend essentially straight-forward from your shoulder joint, so about 90 degrees, unlike in the first exercise, when the arm rotated CCW from the joint. (To be more precise, in the second exercise, your upper arm is at a 90 degree angle from your shoulder joint; I curve my arm from the elbow to the wrist, so that my hand actually ends up at 12:00. On the first exercise, it probably ends up at 2:00 with my upper arm facing 11:00 and reaching towards 12:00. I actually don't know if curved lower arm versus straight lower arm would make a difference in technique.... I don't recall being taught to do that, but it "feels" like it would be better than a straight arm - but I don't know why.)

    Think about trying to balance in this position: your goal is to keep your left arm in line with your left leg, definitely NOT rotated before 12:00, and your right arm approximately over your right leg but really a bit to the side of it. There should be tension in this position, but no tension between your lower and upper body, as they are attempting to be in line with each other. If you want to compare this to the first technique, from this lined-up position, twist your right shoulder towards 6:00 and your left shoulder towards 12:00 without moving your hips.

    You can get a sense of the outside/inside edge by thinking - in the first exercise - about feeling your weight on the outer edge of your foot, and - in the second exercise - about feeling your weight on the inner edge of your foot.
    hanca and (deleted member) like this.
  11. Triple Butz

    Triple Butz Well-Known Member

    I see what you're saying, but most of the traditional "preceding movements" were put in place to set up the type of rotation (ie, 3 turn into a flip jump already should have you turning into the natural rotation, long back glide into a lutz gives you the time to you to shift your weight away from the direction you will turn in the air).