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Australian dispute over women's Olympic spot to have Court of Arbitration (CAS) hearing

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Dec 3, 2013.

  1. Lyinna

    Lyinna Member

    If her point is that Han can't go because she's ineligible as an australian skater since the competition she did in the US before Nebelhorn Trophy, then Australia would not have a spot for the Olympics.

    I hope that Han can go, she improved a lot and deserve it, it would be a shame that someone else got the spot she earn
  2. Mrs. P

    Mrs. P Well-Known Member

    In the ISU/IOC's eyes, the spot is not tied to Han but the Australian federation, so they have the Olympic spot regardless of Han's eligibility internally for that spot.

    However, my impression is that per the Australian fed criteria, the person who earned the spot at Nebelhorn got the spot. However, if it turns out that Han cannot take the spot, does the criteria allow for an alternate, i.e. Kerry? It sounds like she has the TES minimums to go the Olympics. It's just a matter whether the ISA can give it to her per their guidelines.
  3. falling_dance

    falling_dance Coaching Patrick

    I suppose I should have specified that it was an older version of the Chantelle Kerry entry (the entry being the thing which has since been cleaned up; hence the parenthetical in post #82).
  4. Sylvia

    Sylvia Still recovering from Worlds...

    2014 AUSTRALIAN OLYMPIC WINTER TEAM ICE SKATING AUSTRALIA INCORPORATED NOMINATION CRITERIA – FIGURE SKATING: http://www.isa.org.au/Documents/Hig...ting 2014 Nomination Criteria _June 2013_.pdf
    ETA link to another article summarizing the situation (no new facts): http://www.insidethegames.biz/sport...ent-for-sochi-2014-delayed-over-selection-row
    Last edited: Dec 3, 2013
  5. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Past Prancer's Corridor

    Yes, but carrying the argument to its logical conclusion, if Han is/was not an eligible Australian skater (after allegedly competing at an event w/out permission from the Australian federation), then she would not have status as an Australian skater at Nebelhorn and her win there would be forfeit. In that case, Australia would not have a place in Sochi for any ladies skater.
  6. Skittl1321

    Skittl1321 Well-Known Member

    So basically, it is speculation.
    Because we don't know that CAS will rule this way.
  7. skatingfan5

    skatingfan5 Past Prancer's Corridor

    Of course it's speculation since we don't even know what the specifics are that were submitted to the CAS.
  8. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    As far as USFS rules are concerned (see rule 3060 in the 2013-14 rulebook),
    So yes, the US does require documented permission. It would be up to the host club to verify it.

    But that has nothing to do with ISA rules, which would be what is at issue. USFS rules would have no standing in this case.

    Again, if the ISA violated their own rules but not any ISU rules in sending Han to Nebelhorn, as far as the ISU is concerned the results would be valid and the spot would have been legitimately earned.

    As I understand it, what's at issue here is whether the ISA violated its own rules in sending Han to Nebelhorn. So yes, it's hypocritical for someone else to want her disqualified from using the spot that Han earned in order to use that spot herself, but the existence of the spot itself would not be negated from the ISU point of view.
  9. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Legally, that's probably how it looks like.

    Morally... So you are making an argument which has a logical conclusion that Australia shouldn't have an Olympic spot for Ladies but then you want that spot anyway. I am rolling my eyes so hard, I'm going to bash my skull.
  10. Sylvia

    Sylvia Still recovering from Worlds...

    In one hour at 6:30 pm Eastern time tonight (Tuesday, Dec. 3).
  11. RFOS

    RFOS Well-Known Member

    Well, there is a chance that if Brooklee had been deemed ineligible by the federation prior to Nebelhorn that Chantelle could have earned Australia the spot. Since she didn't get a chance to go, we don't know that Chantelle wouldn't have qualified the spot herself so you can't hold that against her. :p (OK, that's a bit of a stretch...)
  12. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    According to Rule 109 in the ISU Constitution (2012, the latest), being an eligible member of the national Federation under which a skater competes is an underlying requirement to participate:
    If Han was not an eligible member of the Member (ISA) when she competed at Nebelhorn regardless of citizenship, then she was ineligible to skate there, and the ISU could invalidate the spot for Australia.
  13. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    I should say that the ladies' spot will not be announced at this time.
  14. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    She was given the spot at Nebelhorn by ISA, obviously ISA considered her eligible. She hasn't broken any ISU rules, so ISU couldn't invalidate Australia's spot. CAS could invalidate who the spot is given to, but it's an ISA issue, not an ISU one.

    If Brooklee didn't have permission to skate at Hershey, why did they let her skate, and I don't mean ISA, I mean the US?
  15. Vagabond

    Vagabond Well-Known Member

    Because it's a free country, unlike, say Australia. ;)
  16. Sylvia

    Sylvia Still recovering from Worlds...

    Club competitions usually don't have the time or resources to "vet" their entries. Han was registered to skate under her U.S. club in Connecticut (not unusual even though the USFS had changed their rule earlier in the year) and it's quite possible that the host club's competition registrar and/or accountants were not aware that she represented Australia.

    Please note that I am assuming that the Hershey Open is the competition under question. I don't know this for a fact.
  17. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    Australia has several people competing each year in different competitions, who are not Australian. What's the point of USFS having rules if it's not making sure they're being followed. This is a USFS rule, not an ISA one (though there is probably an ISA equivalent).

    So whose fault is that? Shouldn't they be making sure everyone competing is abiding by USFA rules? That's of course, assuming they didn't. Should Han have needed to approach them? That seems a little odd.

    Has Han needed to be released by USFS to skate for Australia anyway?
  18. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    All skaters need to be eligible members of the Members for whom they compete when they compete. If she was not an eligible member of ISA, regardless of what they thought at the time, she did not meet ISU eligibility requirements to skate for Australia. Because eligibility is stripped retroactively, which is what it sounds like Kerry's argument was to the sports tribunal and is now to CAS, doesn't necessarily mean the ISU can't invalidate the results, just as they could invalidate results if doping was proven, by a medalist or not.

    The USFS rules cited up thread by gkelly address two categories of skaters who need permission:

    1. A non-US citizen who is non-Canadian
    2. A US citizen who was released to skate for another country.

    Han is exclusively neither. By US law she is a US citizen -- the US ignores all other citizenships -- and as a US citizen who never needed a release from USFS -- according to her ISU bio, she's only represented Australia, even in Nationals -- she didn't need permission from her Federation to skate at Hershey. Whether the organizers asked for one since she competed for AUS and/or she submitted one nonetheless is another story.
  19. gkelly

    gkelly Well-Known Member

    But again, it makes no difference to this case whether Han or the US club that hosted the competition failed to comply with USFS rules.

    All that matters is whether ISA rules were violated. I don't know what the relevant ISA rule is. Or whether ISA's penalty for violating it is automatic loss of eligibility to represent Australia.
  20. eurodance2001

    eurodance2001 Well-Known Member

    What a shame that the Brooklee won't be able to participate in the press conference taking place right now; they interveiwing Brendan as we speak..
  21. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    I understand this; but there is nothing written in this thread to prove that Brooklee was not eligible to compete.

    The press conference is on now, Greg has just been named :)
  22. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    The Hershey competition wasn't used as the basis of anything, such as eligibility for another event or minimum TES scores.

    Presumably those will be the key points in the CAS case.
  23. Lara

    Lara It's JJ style!

    Press conference is on and Brendan Kerry, Greg Merriman and Danielle O'Brien are in attendance and have been officially announced on the team. Will have to see whether there's any press questioning re. ladies at the end, though there surely won't be any comment on the subject.
  24. Angelskates

    Angelskates Well-Known Member

    None, as expected. It's such a shame that Brooklee missed out on this.
  25. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    Of course there's nothing in this thread to prove that Han was ineligible. There are only press reports that state the basis of Kerry's complaint, which was rejected by a sports tribunal and is now going to CAS.

    The question was raised whether the ISU would take away AUS's Olympic spot IF CAS rules that Han was ineligible to skate at Nebelhorn because she broke ISA rules to compete at a competition without ISA permission.
  26. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    This dispute reminds me of a famous Chinese proverb.

    "If you are bent on revenge, dig two graves."
  27. essence_of_soy

    essence_of_soy Well-Known Member

    How would Kerry perform in Sochi if she did go?
  28. Aceon6

    Aceon6 Hit ball, find ball, hit it again.

    My guess, FNR
  29. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Hates both vegemite and peanut butter

    Of course people will. But I am really disturbed by some of vitriol and nasty things being said about a skater here. I know both skaters and the parents personally. This is the reason why I tell skaters never to venture on these forums. I think I will keep away from this thread from now on.
    kittyjake5 and (deleted member) like this.
  30. Susan M

    Susan M Well-Known Member

    The IOC does already require this for Olympic team selection.
    A link to the Australian one was posted up thread.

    I think you are right, if Han's participation at Hershey forfeited her Australian federation eligibility, then her place at Nebelhorn should be set aside and the last Olympic spot given to Lithuania. (I believe they were first standby for ladies.) I just don't see any legal defense for allowing Australia to keep the spot if it was earned by an ineligible athlete. So, the arbitrators need to find that Han remained eligible to skate for Australia in order for Australia to keep the spot.

    If Australia keeps the spot, then their own selection criteria require it be given to the skater who earned it. If Australia keeps the spot based on Han still being an eligible member of their federation, then there would be no legal justification for taking the spot from Han.

    So, bottom line is that the girl doing the complaining may well stand to gain nothing from this. It does kind of make you wonder whether her legal team has really thought this all through. It seems a lot of expense and trouble to be doing it for spite.
    Last edited: Dec 4, 2013