Arms variations on the air

Meoima

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5,310
Hi! I am collecting video of skaters doing various arms positions in their airs, not just Tano, ribbons.

These tanos and rippons are nice (Janet Lynn) https://youtu.be/odytP_-zC5E?t=170
(John Curry). https://youtu.be/SKh7XS54gBg?t=41s

But I would like to ask, do we have other variations than just tano and ribbon? I remember they did something different in the old days. Do we have video still?

Thank you very much.
 
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all_empty

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1,795
There are plenty.

Kristi Yamaguchi did a 2F with one hand overhead (92 SP).

Nancy Kerrigan did her 2Lz with hands on her hips (many times)

Midori Ito did a 2A with hands on her hips (87 worlds SP).

These are all on Youtube.
 

Meoima

Well-Known Member
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5,310
There are plenty.

Kristi Yamaguchi did a 2F with one hand overhead (92 SP).

Nancy Kerrigan did her 2Lz with hands on her hips (many times)

Midori Ito did a 2A with hands on her hips (87 worlds SP).

These are all on Youtube.
I remember the one when Ito did it. But who was the one who did it first do you know? I mean both hands on the hips.
 

Sylvia

TBD
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79,989
Hi! I am collecting video of skaters doing various arms positions in their airs, not just Tano, ribbons.
Is "ribbon" an autocorrect of Rippon? :)

ETA from a 2015 thread titled "The High Open Double":
I think a triple with hands-on-the-hips is vastly underrated. When Michael Chack did it on his 3T, it looked awesome.
Michael Chack :swoon:. He used to do it on his 2axel, as well. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pQUSWrGMHwA#t=5m05s
eta: For smaller competitions, I'm a big fan of well-executed doubles like this 2loop with the arms straight out [same link posted by RFOS above]. This was in late 2012 (2013 New England Regionals), so I guess they are still around.
This is the only footage I know of [clip on vine no longer exists unfortunatey], but Tatsuki [Machida] did a beautiful 3Lo with the hands on the hips in the run-throughs of his LP in practice at GPF (as well as in the warm-ups iirc)
 
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AngieNikodinovLove

Frangi & Piazza & Paul & Hektor & Theo. Oh My! šŸ˜
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Nancy Kerrigan did her 2Lz with hands on her hips (many times)

Nancy Kerrigan's shoot-the-duck I always though was way interesting. Shoot-the-duck position nice and low then into a jump with her hands on her hips.
 

Foolhardy Ham Lint

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6,277
Jill Trenary, on the double flip, and Michael Chack, on the triple toe loop, both did variations with their hands down by their hips.
 

Meoima

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Scrufflet

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1,207
Interesting! A lot of these I've never seen.
For next season, I challenge Medeeva to do each one of them instead of doing a tano for every jump!
 

AxelAnnie

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Interesting! A lot of these I've never seen.
For next season, I challenge Medeeva to do each one of them instead of doing a tano for every jump!
Ha! I love that idea.

I have been reading through the thread thinking we need a Zayak rule for the Tano.
 

misskarne

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Jason started his Riverdance season doing the 2T on the end of his 3F-2T with both hands behind his back. By the end of the season he was doing it with one hand behind his back (visible in the viral Nationals video). They dropped it after that season because it wasn't getting the reward.
 

Sylvia

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79,989
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Susan M

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Ha! I love that idea.

I have been reading through the thread thinking we need a Zayak rule for the Tano.

They don't need to go that far, but they should change the GOE guidance to give credit for any one arm variation only the first time it is used. Isn't that what they did with Biellmann positions on spins?
 

Bellanca

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3,301
Why? Because one skater can, and the others can't?
I was thinking along the same lines. Why the desire to level the playing field all the time? If someone excels at something and the others do not, or choose not, that shouldn't warrant an instant rule change. Skaters need to keep up or make adjustments. JMHO.
 
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antmanb

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12,639
I don't think it's about levelling the playing field so much as only giving people credit for "difficult" variations once or twice.

When IJS was first introduced and had no limits on the number of times a Biellmann position could be used to gain points in spins and spirals skaters started using it in laybacks, spin combinations, in each spiral position etc and then every programme looked like a Biellmann fest.

Skaters can only repeat the same triple twice, they can only use a difficult variation in a spin position once in a programme and then they have to use a different one to get the credit etc etc

There are plenty of restrictions in the system about repeating difficult variations and some people think that the tano or rippon variations should be dealt with in the same way.
 

Bellanca

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I think this recent tano 'angst' can be directly attributed to Evgenia's seriously high and almost unreachable scores received at competitions, due in large part to tano-ing. This appears to have agitated enough people to the point where we suddenly have a pressing tano problem, an issue to address. However, the timing is suspect.
;) :lol:

ETA: If Evgenia chose to do one tano per skate, I do not think we would be hearing too much comment about it. Granted, she is not the only skater out there tano-ing, but certainly, she's emphasized, highlighted and utilized the tano to her advantage. JMHO
 
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antmanb

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What difference would changing the rules make to Evgenia? She lands her jumps consistently, and has done for the last two entire seasons, and no other female skater is even close to being as consistent as her. One lone positive bullet doesn't even equate to a full point of GOE increase so I don't see why it would hit her scores particularly.

Personally, i'd prefer a skater like Righini to drop all the Rippon attempts he does in a programme and stick to just one or maybe two attempts.

I also, personally don't want all young skaters coming up through the ranks to train their jumps with arms over their heads, just from an aesthetic point of view. And if in another 5 years everyone does jumps with the arms over their heads, then where is the perceived difficulty?

Like I said the scoring system did it with Biellmanns, with spins on "other edges", with spin combinations that went back to front etc.
 

gkelly

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16,442
There are plenty of restrictions in the system about repeating difficult variations and some people think that the tano or rippon variations should be dealt with in the same way.

The difference is that difficult variations in leveled elements, or different kinds of jumps (takeoff+revolutions) are called by the tech panel.

If it's a tech panel decision, then if at least two of the three members agree that there was indeed a variation, then the skater would automatically get credit -- until they reach the number of times that variation is allowed, and then no subsequent executions of the same variation would get rewarded, even if performed much better in the later element.

Judges, on the other hand, have the discretion to use judgment for each element, as well as for PCS. It's not automatic, but rather up to each judge to determine whether what the skater did was difficult and/or well-executed enough to qualify for that bullet point, and whether that bullet point is enough to push the GOE of the element up one more point (since each positive GOE point is supposed to represent 2 bullets).

The judges aren't keeping track of how many times did the skater do this same variation. Each time they're asking themselves "Did this variation add to the difficulty and/or enhance the quality?" If the answer is No, or if it results in an odd number of bullet points without most of them exceeding that judge's cutoff for "good," they won't give a reward in the GOE. But on the next jump, the answer might be Yes.

As long as "varied position in the air / delay in rotation" is one positive GOE bullet point, then judges can reward any varied position or any delay in rotation under that bullet. But they each get to decide each time.

They also get to decide whether the choice to use those variations enhances or detracts from the purposefulness or originality of the choreography and to reflect that judgment in the Composition score. And whether it enhances or detracts from the "clarity" criterion of the Performance component.

My main concern is that that bullet point can cover many different possible in-air variations, as well as delayed rotation, so I certainly would not want any rule that allows that bullet point to be awarded only once or twice per program.

It could be appropriate to say that the same variation can only be rewarded once or twice per program. As long as it remains a GOE bullet point, there's always the possibility that judges will lose track of exactly how many times the skater executed the same variation, for example, and give credit the third time even if only two are allowed. But certainly if there were instructions to limit the number of time the same variation could be rewarded, most judges would pay some attention to whether they had seen that same variation before in that same program.

I consider landing arm overhead, free arm overhead, and both arms overhead during jumps to be different variations because they have different effects on the technique of the jumps. But a judge -- or tech specialist the in-air variations were given to the tech panel to reward -- would have to pay close attention to notice which arm the skater had overhead.

I also think straight arms vs. curved arms can be considered different, assuming they're not just somewhere in the middle. Most skaters do either one or the other or somewhere in between. But if a skater did have two different jumps in different parts of the music, one with one hand clasping the other wrist in a stretched narrow triangle shape overhead and the other in a curved ballet 5th position, I would consider those two different variations and want judges to have the option to reward both of them.

Not to mention switching arms in the middle of the same jump, as in the John Curry example linked in the first post of this thread.

I think it's a good idea to encourage variety in variations -- but not to limit the number of jumps that skaters can get credit for using a variation.

Just as for jump bullet points 1, 2, and 5, I think skaters should be rewarded every time they can do steps/skating moves directly into a jump or a creative exit out of a jump, but I think the rewards should be higher if they can do different creative entries and exits every time rather than, say, the exact same steps into or exits out of multiple jumps.

That might be another case where the GOE can be awarded every time but judges are free to ding the repetition under Composition if it bothers them.

And surely delay in rotation should be rewarded every time a skater can clearly achieve it. Which is more likely with lower-rotation jumps in any case.
 

Bellanca

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3,301
The difference is that difficult variations in leveled elements, or different kinds of jumps (takeoff+revolutions) are called by the tech panel.

If it's a tech panel decision, then if at least two of the three members agree that there was indeed a variation, then the skater would automatically get credit -- until they reach the number of times that variation is allowed, and then no subsequent executions of the same variation would get rewarded, even if performed much better in the later element.

Judges, on the other hand, have the discretion to use judgment for each element, as well as for PCS. It's not automatic, but rather up to each judge to determine whether what the skater did was difficult and/or well-executed enough to qualify for that bullet point, and whether that bullet point is enough to push the GOE of the element up one more point (since each positive GOE point is supposed to represent 2 bullets).

The judges aren't keeping track of how many times did the skater do this same variation. Each time they're asking themselves "Did this variation add to the difficulty and/or enhance the quality?" If the answer is No, or if it results in an odd number of bullet points without most of them exceeding that judge's cutoff for "good," they won't give a reward in the GOE. But on the next jump, the answer might be Yes.

As long as "varied position in the air / delay in rotation" is one positive GOE bullet point, then judges can reward any varied position or any delay in rotation under that bullet. But they each get to decide each time.

They also get to decide whether the choice to use those variations enhances or detracts from the purposefulness or originality of the choreography and to reflect that judgment in the Composition score. And whether it enhances or detracts from the "clarity" criterion of the Performance component.

My main concern is that that bullet point can cover many different possible in-air variations, as well as delayed rotation, so I certainly would not want any rule that allows that bullet point to be awarded only once or twice per program.

It could be appropriate to say that the same variation can only be rewarded once or twice per program. As long as it remains a GOE bullet point, there's always the possibility that judges will lose track of exactly how many times the skater executed the same variation, for example, and give credit the third time even if only two are allowed. But certainly if there were instructions to limit the number of time the same variation could be rewarded, most judges would pay some attention to whether they had seen that same variation before in that same program.

I consider landing arm overhead, free arm overhead, and both arms overhead during jumps to be different variations because they have different effects on the technique of the jumps. But a judge -- or tech specialist the in-air variations were given to the tech panel to reward -- would have to pay close attention to notice which arm the skater had overhead.

I also think straight arms vs. curved arms can be considered different, assuming they're not just somewhere in the middle. Most skaters do either one or the other or somewhere in between. But if a skater did have two different jumps in different parts of the music, one with one hand clasping the other wrist in a stretched narrow triangle shape overhead and the other in a curved ballet 5th position, I would consider those two different variations and want judges to have the option to reward both of them.

Not to mention switching arms in the middle of the same jump, as in the John Curry example linked in the first post of this thread.

I think it's a good idea to encourage variety in variations -- but not to limit the number of jumps that skaters can get credit for using a variation.

Just as for jump bullet points 1, 2, and 5, I think skaters should be rewarded every time they can do steps/skating moves directly into a jump or a creative exit out of a jump, but I think the rewards should be higher if they can do different creative entries and exits every time rather than, say, the exact same steps into or exits out of multiple jumps.

That might be another case where the GOE can be awarded every time but judges are free to ding the repetition under Composition if it bothers them.

And surely delay in rotation should be rewarded every time a skater can clearly achieve it. Which is more likely with lower-rotation jumps in any case.
Great post! @gkelly

Thank you for sharing your very well-informed thoughts and opinions with us. :respec:
 

antmanb

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@gkelly I hadn't thought of the practicalities of judging it, but you're right, every other restriction is policed by the tech panel and not the judges so it would be difficult to restrict.
 

bardtoob

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14,559
Do crossed arms not tucked to the body during a 2A as done by Brian Boitano for the final element of his 1988 Olympic SP count as a difficult arm variation?

https://youtu.be/Lk_IXnlbd1U

It seemed like he was trying to emphasize the nuance to the judges for extra credit.
 

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