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Aliona Savchenko/Robin Szolkowy's 2013-14 programs

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Sep 3, 2013.

  1. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    I think S/S deserve the edge here for having a harder throw jump (their excellent 3F) and for putting one at the end of their LP. In addition, Tatiana has at times had some dodgy landings on the throws.

    I think in terms of elements they are pretty evenly matched. S/S have generally had more program content outside the elements. V/T tend to be more consistent, at least for the past calendar year or so. If both pairs skate well, I think they should be evenly matched. The politiks in this situation make it unlikely.
  2. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    But arguably isn't the scale of values there to give someone the edge for having a harder throw? I mean the throw 3F gets more points than a throw 3Lp or throw 3S so the edge is there in the base value. So i would disagree with S/S desrving the edge here. While I agree that Tatiana has has some dodgy landings on the throws - I think she had most of the them on the throw 3F the years they attempted it, and I see a marked improvement in their throw jumps this season so I think they are on a par.

    I agree I think in terms of elements they are faily evenly matched, however, I think V&Ts programmes have been choreographed with GOE bullets in mind though, more carefully that S&S. I say this because when V&T first skated on the GP I was a little bit outraged by the GOE scores they were getting and went to do an analysis of their programmes so went and dug out the GOE guidelines and watched their programmes and promptly had to eat my words...even the GOE bullets that are somewhat subjective, they make sure to tick the most objective ones, so that the subjective ones are the icing on the cake (like height and distance of the jump, or delayed rotation in the throw etc). I found myself surprised and quelled at the same time :)
  3. clairecloutier

    clairecloutier Well-Known Member

    This is an interesting point. There are several lifts in the last, climactic minute of S/S's program, and they're important in trying to build the mood. Aliona's catchfoot positions are extremely well done but not really elegant or beautiful. The positions are there for points, I guess, but they don't match the sweeping, romantic feel of the music. As I watched, I kept thinking, these lifts would have more impact emotionally if she were in a classic swan or star position that would really wow the audience.

    The ISU should look at the CoP for pairs lifts and make some changes. Lifts are increasingly difficult now, but not nearly as enjoyable to watch as they were in earlier eras. Lifts should not detract from the overall look of the program just to get points IMO.
  4. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    That's true for base value, but Hanca's post sort of referred to both BV and execution so I responded to that. And I just feel like there is more value in executing a more difficult element well (the GOE units are the same for all the triple throws though, aren't they)? I also think it is considerably more difficult to land a throw jump at the end of the program than right at the halfway point. But again, the system doesn't really reward this.

    Choreographing for the system often results in programs that are exactly the sum of their parts.... V/T could be so much more interesting than they are. But anyway, I'm more concerned about their PCS than their GOE.
  5. rfisher

    rfisher Will you rise like a phoenix or be a burnt chicken

    I like S/S a lot, but they make a lot of mistakes and I'm not talking about the 3A. They are not skating at the level they were 4 years ago or even 2 years ago. Robin is as likely to miss a jump as he is to hit it. It's unfair to blame V/T for honing their skills. They haven't made a mistake all season. Not one. For S/S to be truely competitive, they must put out mistake free programs just like V/T are doing. That hasn't happened for a long time. They've had illness that impacted them and lord knows Aliona has skated in pain given the falls she's had in practice to say nothing of competitions. But, it's really not fair to blame V/T for skating clean and winning.
  6. Zemgirl

    Zemgirl Well-Known Member

    Trankov's styling is a massive mistake :p

    I blame them for wasting their talent on boring programs; in hindsight, the lyrical snot era wasn't all that bad...
  7. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

    Many interesting comments and I agree with some and I disagree with others.
    Tatiana and Maxim have certainly an advantage over Aliona and Robin since winning Worlds last season. As other said, they have performed excellently this season and if they continue to skate as clean and powerful and Aliona and Robin continue to make mistakes it is of course not unfair nor thanks to pushing by their federation if they win in Sochi.

    However, I think Aliona and Robin still have the better choreography and I disagree with those who said that they don't do these little extras anymore. Just look at their entry into the sbs 3T in the short and into the 2A in the free. The long program is exquisite, but I think they need to get some more speed.
    I prefer Tatiana and Maxim's short program, but Aliona and Robin's long program. Tatiana's and Max' FS has quite a few empty places and poses.
    When looking back, "Pina" was a masterpiece. The "Bolero" never was skated to its full potential, so it is a bit hard to judge. Although I didn't particulary like the music (probably my least favorite program by Savchenko/Szokowy), I think it was a difficult program and they were hardly ever stopping. So I can't agree with those who said that Aliona and Robin's programs aren't as good in the past two years as before. Maybe you just got so used to the quality of their program that you don't notice anymore why they are different and superior to most others.

    As for the throw triple Axel, I wish they would take it out of the short program and keep it as an option, a trump card, for the long. Depending on where they are after the short and how they feel, they could go for it. In the short I believe the risk is too high and the throw takes away from the program too much. Plus it doesn't really give them that many more points. It only would give them more if landed really cleanly with positive GOE, but I don't know if that is going to happen. I actually discussed this with Aliona in Moscow. According to Aliona, her motivation for doing the throw is most of all to continue to do something new and different that the others are not doing. She said they never would have had so much success if they always had stuck to the old and proven ways.
    For sure they were among the first ones to put difficult elements into the second half (even before the bonus was introduced I believe) and continue to do so (they have the twist and one jump in the second half while Tatiana and Max do both jumps and the twist in the beginning).

    As for the side by side jumps, Savchenko/Szolkowy usually land the triple toe-triple toe in the long and it is impressive, they really have a great unison in their elements.

    That said, I really like both teams and wish they will perform their best.
  8. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

    Well said, Eislauffan. I agree with everything.
  9. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    I do agree that it is so much harder to land a throw jump right at the end, but the main problem for S&S are that they haven't actually landed the jump at the end in quite some time - the throw salchow was flawed at COR, and they throw 3A too. Granted they usually did land it when it was the 3S, but they quest for the 3A has overshaddowed that a little, at least for me.

    I agree it is an incredibly impressive element when they hit it, but they have been less consistent with them recently, and they rarely hit both solo jumps, which tends to then leave an impression of weakness in the SBS jumps, even though that may not necessariyl be true. They had errors on both solo jumps at COR, hit great 3T/3T at COC but missed the axels, previous to that at worlds they had errors on both the toe-loops and the axels (popping if memory serves), hit the 3/3 at europeans, but doubled and fell on attempted salchows......which rightly or wrongly makes them appear weak in the SBS jumps.
  10. reut

    reut Well-Known Member

    They skate amazing, perfect short program. And they get second mark lower in every single component... :(
  11. antmanb

    antmanb Well-Known Member

    I didn't see it as such doom and gloom. They ditched the 3ATh in the SP and got within striking distance, I take that as a positive. I have yet to watch the GPF performances so I don't have an opinion yet on the PCS, but the judges were not stingey with either couple with the GOE so from a technical mark perspective they seem to be on an even footing.
  12. Kasey

    Kasey Correcting President Trump's grammar on Twitter :)

    Seriously. S/S with one of their dullest programs ever, skating slightly tentative/slow at times, is still within 3 points or so of V/T, who are skating their best program in their career, a very fast and intricate SP with a theme carried strongly throughout, and hitting all of their elements cleanly. It's not like S/S are 10+ points behind with both teams basically clean. The LP should be interesting, since neither one of these teams has a fantastic/fabulously stellar LP, in terms of choreography and such. However, I think that the consistency factor, and at least this season the "WOW" factor, is currently on the side of V/T, who haven't had an error in a competitive program yet this year.
  13. Macassar88

    Macassar88 Well-Known Member

    Yay they won!
  14. Sylvia

    Sylvia Prepping for club comp. season!

  15. hanca

    hanca Well-Known Member

    Well, that proved my point. Being consistent and having all their elements clean (especially all their jumps) is more important than having throw 3A! :)
  16. Eladola

    Eladola Active Member

    That's true, but still, Had V\T gone clean they would have lost, even if their spins were a little tighter and the ending was spot on,
    So maybe keep that axle as an doomsday option

    I'm still baffled at how people are fine with V/T having higher PCS on this, But not unexpected .
    julieann and (deleted member) like this.
  17. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Wow, it was lovely to see Aliona and Robin looking so strong, so connected and so in sync. There was a joyful quality about their skating in both programs at GPF that had been missing ever since the beginning of last season. It seems as if letting go of their 3-axel quest has lifted a huge weight from their shoulders freeing them to simply focus energy on doing their best w/o having to worry about attempting an inconsistent element. I think the possibility of Aliona injuring herself on valiant 3-axel efforts cemented their decision, which looks to be the best approach.

    S/S lit up the ice, conjuring memories of some of their greatest performances. It's as if they made a pact to soar together joyfully over these final months of their competitive career.

    ITA Eladola, 're PCS marks. Aliona especially is a much more expressive performer than Tatiana. Max and Tat are great together but their strength is in the amazing technical feats they have in their arsenal, plus the political favor they enjoy with Olympics taking place in Sochi. It would be good to see Max and Tat continue to develop their presentation skills and their chemistry while staying eligible for awhile longer.

    No matter what, I hope Aliona and Robin will skate with the same kind of uplifting joy and grace at Sochi Olympics that they demonstrated in Japan.

    All the pairs competitors were on fire in the sp, seemingly taking inspiration from each preceding pair.
  18. DreamSkates

    DreamSkates Well-Known Member

    I so enjoy their program this year and they look "comfortable in their own skin" and I am cheering for them to win the OGM this time. It could be a close call considering how V/T are faring point-wise.
  19. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

    During German Nationals, Aljona Savchenko and Robin Szolkowy went to a TV studio, were interviewed and the camera was with them during the competition day. There is also a part of the documentary on the Olympic season with footage from their training and costume checks at home (ft shirtless Robin!). This part was broadcasted already earlier this season.
    You can watch the video here (in Gerrman): http://mediathek.rbb-online.de/rbb-...avchenko-szolkowy-zu-gast?documentId=18657078
  20. Finnice

    Finnice Well-Known Member

    Eislauffan, vielen danke!
  21. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    IceNetwork article (dated 12/16/2013) on Savchenko/ Szolkowy "closing the circle" at German Nationals with their eighth title:


    There's a quote by Savchenko indicating that their GPF win over V/T has helped them "gain confidence." And some additional fighting words by Savchenko (whether or not she's aware of Maxim Trankov's quoted comments in his recent interview):

    "'In Japan we could show who is the boss, and we want to show this again in Sochi,' said Savchenko."

    I notice that Aliona did not say "we're miles ahead of our competitors," but just that on the ice in Japan, "we could show who is the boss," and they want to do so again on the ice in Sochi. I hope so too! Regardless of whether or not they will stand on the top of the podium in Sochi, Aliona and Robin along with their coach Ingo Steuer, have made the sport better by being in it. (Paraphrasing Dick Button's highest praise re what makes the greatest figure skating champions so great).

    The below smokin' hot pics of Robin and Aliona originally posted in the FSU German news thread (from photo shoot for a calendar) are definitely boss! I want this calendar! How can I get it?

  22. Lis

    Lis Active Member

    Just imagine them wearing the same as they are in the photos on the ice in a program ....now that would have been something :)
  23. ioana

    ioana Well-Known Member

    Given how cold some rinks can be, nipple haven, eys. Not that I'm saying that would be an entirely bad thing, just distracting :shuffle:

    I'm still really happy they skated so well at the GPF. Hopefully they can keep the momentum going.
  24. Jeschke

    Jeschke #teamtrainwreck #teamschott

    s/s official calender for 2014 looks like that

    sorry to say this :D

    i think these photos were 'just' for their promotion of their ice show after this season :p
    but i can understand, why you would like to have a calender out of these pictures :D
  25. aftershocks

    aftershocks Well-Known Member

    Oh, thanks Jeschke! I'll take the conventional calendar AND the hot pics!

    Hopefully, S/S win Gold in Sochi and segue into a very hot, very satisfying skating show/ tour. Please bring your hotness to the States, your Highnesses, Aliona and Robin! :swoon: :encore:
  26. Karpenko

    Karpenko Not Impressed.

    I love their long the more I see it, I really like how they are true to the characters through the entire piece. I loved some of the other Nutcracker programs choreographically a lot more, but that's one aspect I like about theirs over just about anybody else to skate to this music. I also just love how they never give up on the top spot no matter what, I'm officially on their OGM bandwagon (And Volosozhar is my favorite ladies pairs skater of all-time). V/T can have the two medals with the team and 2018, they are far enough ahead with S/S gone, S/S I want to win it now. Wheee! :inavoid: Reminiscing back they have done everything, and made it work with actual thought behind it, for 10 years now! Where did the time go. :huh:
  27. Eislauffan

    Eislauffan Well-Known Member

    There will be a 30 minutes documentary aired on German TV (ARD, first channel) on Sunday, Dec 29 at 18.40 (German time).
    "On the road to Sotchi"
  28. Jeschke

    Jeschke #teamtrainwreck #teamschott

    thanks eislauffan ;)
    here is the link


    it's german and maybe geoblocked;

    it's nothing really new and most most of the time a mixture of old reports about them (grand prix final, search for the right costume, bad fall before season start)
    there was additional a sequence of aliona visiting her family in ukraine and some interviews with her mother and father; especially like the comments of her mother, who seemed like a very down-to-earth person;
    like the 'love' express by aliona for chemnitz;
    some mentions about their last season, and some circles, which closed this season. fight for the ultimate goal, sochi might be the last competition; aliona can't think of it now, otherwise she would be in tears; robin wants to focus and think about the end firstly after sochi, too.
    he said, he was very nervous before nationals; as closer he is to his home, he gets more nervous, liked that ;)

    although the documentary seemed more like a fill spot after the ski jumping event i like, that aliona&robin finally get some attention in their final year!
  29. Jeschke

    Jeschke #teamtrainwreck #teamschott

    new intreview with ingo steuer in german


    try to translate it correctly.

    q: after 6th place finish in torino and 3rd in vancouver you want gold in sochi. how difficult will this be?
    a:very difficult, this will be a big event.we're the hunters in the lions' den. but we know what we are doing there. it's good, when you know that you will have a difficult route; a route without difficulties isn't that good. we need these difficulties, to put them beside. (lots of metaphers :p)

    q: what has changed compared to the previous 2 olympics?
    a:we are not the current world champions heading into sochi. we are more freeafter our 2nd place finish last year. the pressure is on v/t. during my entire career i experienced a lot, how favourites stumbled at olympics, like 4-time-worlds-champion kurt browning never reached a medal there. olympics has its own rules.

    q: has changed somehting due to the success of your team at the gpf?
    a: no, but it was the right time to show before sochi, that the champions are beatable. although we were just at 75%. if they would have skated clean, they would have won. but they made mistakes, this was not expected.

    q: after the geavy fall of aliona in moscow you didn't try the 3axel in the gpf; will you go for it at euros or olympics?
    a: the euros will be seen just as practice. we will work before at the transitions of the elements in the short program. if we might risk the axel, will be decided just before the competition. for sochi the axel is scheduled, this is our strategy :)yikes:)

    q: qhat will be the deciding thing for gold in sochi?
    a: we have to focus on ourselves. if we skate without any mistakes and land the axel at the end of the free skate, we will win, even if tanya and maxim will skate cleanly too. the russians have the better short program, but our free skate is of more high-quality. it's great that there will be this duel.

    q: your team will not participate in the new team event. in other sports this team competition takes place at the end of the competitions, not so in figure skating; what di you think of this?
    a: it's great that there will be the team event, the timing of the competition is not great. it would be a shining end after the individuals. we want to focus on the individuals and give all there, where it is needed; otherwise maybe these little pieces will be missing in the individuals. addidtionally is the fact, that we absolutely have no shot on a medal there.

    q: it's very doubtful that s/s will take part in the worlds following sochi. but for sure at the 1st of april you are a coach without any top pair. s/s will skate, if at least, any shows. how hard will that change be for you?
    a: i'm very emotional about the goodbye and feel some kind of melancholy. after the games, we will sit together and decide what to do. we have grown as a team - if we would work together in anyways in the futur, this would be very nice. but i aim to create something new; up to this day i rejected all requests from single skaters and from foreign countries. maybe i just need a break. 13-14 years of the highes level are exhaustive.

    q: will there be any possibilty in the future, that the german fed might pay you despite your stasi-past?
    a: i hope everyday for a solution, which is good for the sport. the german fed would be pleased if there would be any way if they could pay me like any other coach.
  30. Lis

    Lis Active Member

    Thank you Jeschke,very nice interview with Ingo!

    I do hope he continues working with another pair or single skater but he does deserve a rest but not for too long and also to get paid for what he does by the German fed ... I am so looking forward to what Ingo will do next! Together with Aljona and Robin would be exciting too,they have so much experience and it would be great if they can somehow use that in the future an share with other skaters.

    I think he is right too about V/T having the stronger SP and S/S the stronger FP nice of him to admit that and also that he thinks it is great with the duel.