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Age Discrepancies for Chinese Skaters

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by oleada, Feb 9, 2011.

  1. Frau Muller

    Frau Muller #1 Dick Button Fan

    Jeez, you don't have to scream (bold lettering); we hear you. I just feel sorry for talented skaters like Sui/Han who live in an authoritarian regime and most likely did not make decisions to cheat on their own...and most likely did not even know about the bloody age rules themselves. In such societies, federation officials, coaches and others usually make decisions. For poor decisions, talented individuals will probably never be given a fair shake from ISU judging panels ever again. I would not want to be the FSUer whose innocent and well-meaning analysis led to the end of promising careers.
  2. bsfan

    bsfan New Member

    Then why the data from official site are different? Some Chinese media seem to indicate that the American media raised the issue. Wasn't it caused by data mis-match btw Chinese official site and ISU?
  3. 93ning

    93ning New Member


    im not work in the office ,so i dont know
    i just said whose age that i know and i can sure.

    Han cong and Zhanghao
  4. brina

    brina Well-Known Member

    :rolleyes: I think it's silly that you're arguing for the Chinese skaters for the sake of fairness. Sure, it isn't fair for them if it wasn't their decision, but it is much more unfair for everyone if they are not competing by the rules. Whether or not a poster on this board is involved in the process of uncovering any untruths (which I doubt will actually lead to anything for the reasons mentioned before), it is ultimately more fair for everyone involved in the sport if the rules are followed consistently.

    EDIT: I would also like to add that while I think punishment should take place if the rules are not being followed, I hope judging panels don't let their opinions of this alter their judging. That is the last thing that would make the sport look objective.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
    Ozzisk8tr and (deleted member) like this.
  5. barbk

    barbk Well-Known Member

    Do you feel equally bad for the folks who work in the drug labs that found drug residues in many cycling and track & field athletes -- some of whom were forced then to give back Olympic, World, and Tour de France medals? :confused:

    There is every appearance that birth dates have been fudged for a number of Chinese skaters -- notice that the girls are all entered as older, while the boys are entered as younger.

    I do not see this as any different from an athlete taking performance enhancing drugs with the concurrence and support of their federation or coaches. (And different than the German girls who were fed "vitamins".) If they won medals under false pretenses, there should be punishment including withdrawal of medals and withdrawal of entries falsely earned, and if the evidence indicates systematic problems, then the Chinese program should get the death penalty for at least a year, just like N. Korea got in gymnastics.
  6. midori

    midori Well-Known Member

    bsfan, the spreadsheet was huge. It is natural to have many errors. You know when federations, any skating federations in the world, publish big documents they usually contain some errors.

    I am not talking about if there were cheats or not. I am saying that the data highly likely has some honest errors, with or without cheated ones.

    ETA: 93ning, thank you for your post about Han cong and Zhang Hao!
  7. benedict_david

    benedict_david New Member

    Then in those errors, girls happen to have earlier birthdays and guys happen to have later birthdays. And we have found other resources which HAPPEN to agree with those errors (multiple documents, news). What a COINCEDENCE!:rolleyes:
  8. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Bold isn't screaming, caps is; bold is being emphatic.

    You can let "innocent" skaters off the hook all you want, maybe at eight years old but at 13 and 15? No way. When they stare up at that flag on the top of that podium knowing that they are there because they didn't tell the truth is WRONG (now I'm screaming), my coach made me do it, my mom, my fed...:blah: they shouldn't be a bit surprised someone got suspicious and shouldn't be surprised if they are stripped of their medals and records and live with that shame for the rest of their career. They have what is coming if they are guilty.

    I feel most sorry for the skaters who got that precious moment of getting that medal stolen by a cheater. Finally getting it 10 years later or whatever is not the same thing.
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  9. taf2002

    taf2002 zexy demon

  10. midori

    midori Well-Known Member

    I wish you read the latter half of my post.

    Also I did not know you have found any other resources of multiple documents and news about Cong Han's age.
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  11. 93ning

    93ning New Member

    Being a Chinese
    first, i do not deny that maybe someone' age is a lie.
    second,Chinese websit is always not very exact. my sisiter attend the gaokao
    in 2007,she report her age 18(1989) to the website ,but some days later,it charged to 1979.........

    that skater website everyone can see .
    its so foolish if they want to tell a lie(about so many skaters) in that website.
    for many years Hancong's age is right in that website ,just this year is wrong.

    i just waiting for some news from a friend who was a skater ,now ,is a coach and maybe she know Zhangdan & Gengbingwa

    i will be very disappointment if Bingwa's age is a lie ( i saw her in China cup
    so lovely a girl)
  12. equatorial

    equatorial Well-Known Member

    And why can't you tell? Because I can tell you that Angelina Jolie is still a virgin giving birth by immaculate conception, I just can't tell you where I got this info :p
  13. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

    Was it from the Chinese?
  14. LynnW

    LynnW Politiking for Purple

    And how “sweet” of you to want to reward the cheaters while the people who trained hard and played under the rules are penalized.

    But it is ok that other talented people don't get a fair shake now because other people are cheating? :rolleyes: So let us condone the cheating and the injustice that is happening now by projecting into the future and worrying that perhaps, maybe the cheaters might not get a fair shake in the future? :confused:

    Your "analysis" gives new meaning to don't kill the messenger... Of course it would never be the fault of the Chinese Fed who helped falsify records or the skaters who lied about their ages. No, let us all blame Oleada and the other :kickass: posters who think cheating is wrong and that cheaters shouldn't get away with it? Seriously? WTF?
    PeterG, skatemomaz, jamesy and 7 others like this.
  15. Ilvskating

    Ilvskating Member

    I'm curious about the whole thing too, so I went to check the whole links above and read the corresponding Chinese. All I can say about the articles is that they did not check the fact before publishing them as there are multiple holes in the articles about Zhang/Zhang's ages.

    My analysis of all the information from the two articles leads me to the conclusion that Hao Zhang's ISU bio is about correct, but Dan Zhang's is questionable, and she could be 3 years younger than the ISU bio!

    Here is my rationale:
    Hao Zhang was 12 years old when they paired up according to Dan Zhang. The article was written in early 2009, and saying that they'ved been paired up for 12 years, which means Hao Zhang was about 24 years old, and that match Hao Zhang's ISU Bio year of birth of 1984, not 1982 as the author mentioned.

    For Dan Zhang, the article says she started training when she was more than 5 years old, her ISU bio says she started club training in 1992, which gives her year of birth around 1986 or 1987, but the article said during 1993-1998 she did not miss a day of club training , which could make her one year younger, to year of 1988. This matches the mentioning of 10-year old sensation of 1988. Her ISU bio is 1985.

    So it seems that Dan Zhang is a genius! She could bo triple jumps at 10-11 years old?

    There is other info in the two articles about ages that doesn't make sense ( such as right after mentioning the 10 year old Dan Zhang, the auther says after 10 months pairing, the 13 , 14 years olds won in their competition) and I jus All I can say is that we need to take what the journalists say with a grain of salt(?)
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
  16. 93ning

    93ning New Member

    i dont know many words you wrote.........
    and i dont know the second sentence ' meaning......
    these words are too diffucult fo me . can you use some easy words...

    well,my meaning is in this time i dont want to say more
    i just waiting to confirm others by a (maybe) irregular way
  17. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

    For someone so obsessed with fairness, Frau seems very selective in her idea of what fair is and who it should encompass. Coddle China and screw everyone else. Amazing really.

    As for the idea that Oleada is responsible for ending anyone's career, I think LynnW said it best...WTF?

    The Chinese Skating Federation is responsible for any and all repercussions. They alone need to look themselves and their athletes in the face and deal with the consequences of their actions, not Oleada. :rolleyes:
  18. benedict_david

    benedict_david New Member

    Guess what, I did found something about Hao Zhang's age and I haven't look into Cong Han's case yet. The thing is, we are questioning the discrepencies rather than asserting or judging anything. Yeah I accept that there might have been some errors owing to the carelessness of whoever in charge of these documents, but then? That still cannot explain the whole myth here. What we want is the truth, not some untrustworthy answer from the authority or skaters themselves which do not stand with various news reports/goverment documents. Neither do we want some vague claims from some random chinese skating fan (sorry 93ning, forgive me here, but I intend no offence) saying that some skaters ages are correct due to some unspeakable reason.
    And believe me or not, it takes me a lot of time and energy to search for information online, reading through poorly translated articles, and it doesn't feel that good. Especially when it comes to some skaters I like very much. It's annoying but lies are always even more annoying.
  19. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Taipei Times

    This is a story from the Taipei Times about the 4CC, it mentions the age discrepancies at the bottom.

    It also mentions Pang and Tong will retire after worlds to get married and start a family. :D
  20. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    That's not what they said in other news stories. :confused:
  21. benedict_david

    benedict_david New Member

    If we follow the other article, we can see that they paired up in 1998. And let's review their controversial ages:
    So if we are to believe the listed ages, then in 1998, Dan Zhang was 10~11 and Hao Zhang was 15~16. (Notice that Dan Zhang said that "Hao Zhang was 12", not the reporter)
    And that would explain why he was so tall at 12 years old.

    I haven't seen any description about Dan Zhang doing triple jumps when she was about 11 or something. Would you point it out for me? And I'm not that surprised if that's true, it's not a miracle for an 11-yr-old to be able to do 3S or 3T.
  22. 93ning

    93ning New Member


    as my poor English ,i cant meaning most words you wrote

    i dont believe any media now. Chinese or American or others.
    everyone just argue and no one can give a evidence

    now,my friend cant help me more

    if i have time one /two week later(if i cant go that time ,the lastest is July ,my summer vacation)i will go to harbin to investigate by myseif

    a person living in this world always can left some traces
    Last edited: Feb 16, 2011
    alilou and (deleted member) like this.
  23. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    Actually, there are many skaters that can do triples at 10-11 yrs old.
  24. bsfan

    bsfan New Member

    Wait till the Olympic year. I read from Chinese report that they will come back for the OGM. My guess is that the stratergy of S/Z works the best... Let the Germens and Russians fight and give them a shock right before the Game.
  25. julieann

    julieann Well-Known Member

    I thought about that theory and the only problem with it is, S/Z left on top and P/T have not been doing well all year. My guess is unless they really pull it out in the next few weeks to become great; they will struggle for a world medal this year. They won't get better by retiring, only worse. I don't know if they will change their minds if China has no more pairs :rolleyes:
  26. Ilvskating

    Ilvskating Member

    I'd like to correct the concept that there could be only one year difference when using different age counting system. In China, one could be considered two years old when one's only two days old, especially in the North, we call it xu/mao sui, or unreal/approximate age. One is considered one year old when he/she was born, and every chinese new year or a New Year, depending on which system one use, add another year to your age. So if a person is born on Dec. 31, she or he would be 2 years old by Jan. 1 next year.
    So it is quite difficult to determine one's year of birth by conversation. Many would clarify by asking is that xu/mao sui or shi/zhou sui (real/full cycle age)?
    Also people in different occasions also choose to use different way of counting. I would fully understand people use shi/zhou sui when trying to emphasize what a genius a kid is.
  27. equatorial

    equatorial Well-Known Member

    The 2006 article says they paired up in 1998. He couldn't be 12 by then. It seems that all these discrepancies clearly point to age falsification.
  28. 93ning

    93ning New Member


    They wont charge their mind.
    PANG/TONG both not in good health this year
    especially Pang ,i dont know now,but about one month ago,just about 38kg

    they need rest
    julieann and (deleted member) like this.
  29. GarrAarghHrumph

    GarrAarghHrumph I can kill you with my brain

    Based on the elite level judges that I know, I strongly doubt that any would let this impact their judging of what goes on out on the ice. These judges are really savvy people - I have no doubt that they understand the issues involved.
  30. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

    :eek: :scream: