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Adelina "downgraded" to alternate for Worlds

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Yazmeen, Mar 6, 2014.

  1. Japanfan

    Japanfan Well-Known Member

    Hanyu: Over 2 points below his highest PCS in the list you gave

    Sotnikova: Almost 5 points above her PCS in the list you gave, and others said Sotnikova skated similarly at Europeans.

    But even if a case can me made that skater _ was over-scored, it has nothing to to do with Sotnikova's scorse.
  2. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    It depends how you look at it. I dont neccessarily agree with the uproar that seems to be surrounding her win but in this sport when people remember you for controversial wins or your biggest wins as controversial, it does tend to take some lustre off the achievement and affect how people regard it and you. This isnt a sport run against a stopwatch, but decided by a selected handful of people, and if people dont trust or strongly disagree with these people then you wont be recognized the same way as people who had pretty convincing wins to the general public and experts like Michelle Kwan, Yu Na Kim, Gordeeva & Grinkov, Torvill & Dean, Kurt Browning, etc....

    Just look at Patrick Chan and to a lesser degree Oksana Gritschuk and how they are perceived and rated by people which is significantly lower than their achievements on paper.
  3. skatingguy

    skatingguy Well-Known Member

    The article linked in the first post uses the word downgraded to describe Sotnikova's status for worlds. The site is a Russian website with articles that look they have been translated to English so I think that in the process of translating the individual picked the wording that was close to the original Russian but the wording is not something an English language speaker would have used.
  4. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Yeah, I guess I meant the presentation side of things. Technically she was as hopeless as ever, I guess :p I remember her improving her posture and lines, both of which were shockingly bad at 2002 Olympics. It's like she actually made an effort.

    Ever since I started following skating, the Ladies' OGM would always end up being some kind of sad joke with Kim's majestic and unquestionable 2010 victory being the only exception I can think of. It's like there's some kind of ancient curse hanging over the poor Ladiezzz. :(

    Ah ok, that would make sense, thanks.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  5. Dr.Siouxs

    Dr.Siouxs Well-Known Member

    Sarah was no Nikodinov but she could paint a striking picture on the ice. You must have found the ladies field back then nearly entirely unwatchable if you found Hughes that repulsive. :lol:
  6. Domshabfan

    Domshabfan A proud P/C fan

    Popova will be like 10th in Russia, so I don't think thru are going to send her even if she is from Crimea.
  7. Sk8swan

    Sk8swan Well-Known Member

    Why I'm not surprised with this news... I could have bet money on it just the same way I did with Plushenko withdrawing before the individual event... :saint:
  8. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    A striking picture of sloppiness maybe. :saint: Between her hunched shoulders, turtle neck and poor lines, with none of her movements extended properly, it was just :yikes:.

    I've recently re-watched her 2002 Olympics SP because of some discussion about those results and it was even worse than I remembered. :p

    There were plenty of Ladies who were very much watchable - for different reasons - back then.
  9. misskarne

    misskarne #AustraliaForTheTeamEvent

    You bet money on a screw in Plushenko's back snapping?

    Or are you one of these evil people who says he faked it?
  10. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Given the severity of his injuries/health issues, it was very likely that something would flare up.
  11. redfiretrees

    redfiretrees Figure Skating Fan in the Tropics

    She's really is in a no win-win situation because not joining Worlds is making her seem a bit afraid but I think she made the right choice because if she doesn't perform to expectations (win any medal) she will be attacked once again by so many people (media, critics and the haters of course.)
  12. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

    I'm not interested in the was she overscored argument, but you should watch her Euros skate on youtube. It was not at the level of her Olympic skate. Her long program skate at TEB was great though.
  13. bronwynsings

    bronwynsings Well-Known Member

    Yes, that's it, you nailed it. The reason she is getting so much controversy is because she crosses herself. Way to go. /sarcasm

    I am also very liberal, and I didn't even notice that she crosses herself.
  14. libra55

    libra55 New Member

    Her marketability even in Russia is as questionable as her OGM. Russia has two Olympic champs in ladies - Liptistkaya and Sotnikova, who are represented by hostile, so to say, "PR agents" - Ilia Averbukh and Tatiana Tarassova. We definitely will see the war betwen them.
  15. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    Hughes skated detailed performances, often pointed her toes, and she had beautiful run-out after many of her edge jumps. (How she managed this on many of her mule-kicked toe jumps still leaves me stumped.) I think she was quite musical and strong enough to stay with the music, when many skaters don't risk having that direct relationship with the music.

    What frustrates me about Sotnikova is thinking about how spectacular she'd be with even decent, let alone great, material. She reminds me of Hughes in that both attack(ed) without apology.
  16. taf2002

    taf2002 zexy demon

    I can remember some good ones at the beginning of my fandom - these are the ladies I've seen:

    1960 - * Carol Heiss (I can barely remember this but it was where my love of skating started)
    1964 - * Sjoukje Dijkstra (for some reason I can't really remember her)
    1968 - * Peggy Fleming
    1972 - * Trixie Schuba (this is the 1st Oly where I can remember all 3 LPs from the podium ladies)
    1976 - * Dorothy Hamil (very close comp with Dianne De Leew-sp)
    1980 - Annett Potzche (this is where it begin to go south for me - should have been Linda F)
    1984 - * Katerina Witt (Rosalynne Sumners should have easily beat her but instead she beat herself, Kat's skate wasn't all that inspiring)
    1988 - * Katerina Witt (Debi Thomas should have easily beat her but instead she beat herself, Kat's skate was like a show number)
    1992 - * Kristi Yamaguchi (Midori Ito should have easily beat her but instead she beat herself)
    1994 - Oksana Bauil (possibly one of the worst OGMs technically, Chen Lu was probably the best skater on the podium at the time)
    1998- Tara Lipinski (very close comp with Kwan- probably deserves an * but as a Kwan fan I can't do it)
    2002 - Sarah Hughes (if she had been scored correctly in the SP Kwan or Slutskaya would have won)
    2006 - * Shizuka Arakawa
    2010 - * Yuna Kim
    2014 - Adelina Sotnikova (no controversy for me but judging by all the threads....)

    * no controversy
    BlueRidge and (deleted member) like this.
  17. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Lipinski had tiny jumps, big flutz and her 3/3 sequence - at least - was cheated a lot. Her basics were not at Kwan's level. I don't remember the programs well enough now but I'd probably go with Kwan because of higher quality.

    Hughes should have been outside the top 10 after the SP (most skaters were "clean" as in they didn't make noticeable mistakes) so the gold should have clearly been Slutskaya's.

    Arakawa landed her jumps when others didn't so it's not a case of judging controversy but of an unremarkable skater delivering when better skaters didn't.
  18. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I <3 Kozuka

    You take that back, or I'll cut you :p
  19. taf2002

    taf2002 zexy demon

    Arakawa became remarkable after she won the OGM IMO.
  20. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

    Arakawa was a beautiful skater if you ask me. Who was the better skater who could have beaten her? Sasha Cohen who despite her good points could barely ever win a major comp due to her inability to land all her jumps or to avoid making foolish errors? Irina Slutskaya who could have landed some big jumps and probably won but who didn't exactly grace the ice so to speak. Fumie Suguri?

    The only skater in 2006 who was clearly a greater skater than Arakawa was Kwan. But she was at the end of her career and wasn't able to make it to the Olympics.

    She may have only landed 5 triples but in 2006 Arakawa was the best there was.
  21. giselle23

    giselle23 Well-Known Member

    I've finally got it all figured out. Adelina won as payback for Sarah Hughes beating Irina in 2002. Yuna was just "collateral damage." :)
  22. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Hughes in 2002 was not a controversial win. A semi default win but not a controversial one. Yes there are some skating fans who think she didnt deserve 4th in the short but no media or experts who mattered ever picked up on it as a controversy. Anyway there are just as many who think Kwan did not deserve to win the short, Irina (or even Michelle) was overplaced in the long and so on.

    Lipinski in 1998 cannot be called a controversial win either. The majority seem to agree with it, so at most it is a mildly debated win but not a controversial one.

    I would group them as:

    Non debated (100% wins)- Witt 84, Heiss 60, Dijkstra 64, Fleming 68, Schuba 72 (everyone unstood the scoring format then as frusterating as it was), Hamill 76, Yamaguchi 92, Arakawa 06, Kim 2010, probably Hughes 2002

    Debated but not controversial wins- Lipinski 98, maybe Hughes 02 (not sure if this even belongs in this category to be honest, the only place anyone discusses it a place like FSU), Witt 88 (remember there are some who argue Manley should have won, not me though)

    Minor, but not major, controversies- Baiul 94, Poetzsch (it was too US only oriented to be called major, outside the U.S I dont think it was even existent, although in the U.S it was almost Sotnikova esque)

    Major controveries- Sotnikova 2014 (I dont agree it should be quite this big although I disagreed with the decision, but reality is it is this big; just as I personally dont think Anettes win in 1980 should be any controversy at all- she won because she was better in figures, simple).
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  23. BlueRidge

    BlueRidge AYS's snark-sponge

    btw, it doesn't make sense to me to compare Adelina's PCS with skaters who she didn't compete against (eg Hanyu). If you want to make an argument it seems to be you need to compare her PCS with the skaters who were in the same comp. But you can't compare hers over the season with Yu Na because Yu Na only skated one small comp.

    How about comparing her with Carolina? And Lipnitskaia? Here are scores from Cup of China, Rostelecom Cup, and Olympics:

    Adelina CoC SP: 30.17; LP: 60.31
    Carolina CoC SP: 33.30; LP: 65.31

    Julia CoR SP: 32.61; LP: 63.64
    Carolina CoR LP: 33.40; LP: 68.58

    Adelina Olys SP: 35.55; LP: 74.41
    Carolina Olys SP: 36.63; LP: 73.77
    Julia Olys SP: 33.08; LP: 70.06

    I have no claims to make based on that, but it seems to me its what you need to look at.

    The only claim I would make is that if you consider Ashley Wagner's PCS vs Lip & Sot on the GP and then at the Olys, Ashley has at least some ground to claim she was somewhat [substitute politically correct term].
  24. berthesghost

    berthesghost Well-Known Member

    I always found Shiz remarkable pretty much every year except 98. Torino was kinda lackluster just because it was watered down on the triples, but she was always a beautiful skater IMO.
  25. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Slutskaya on her best day was a better skater than Arakawa, even if Shizuka was arguably more rounded. The only time Shizuka ever performed at a level (or beyond) of Irina on a good day was the 2004 Worlds. Irina with any of her performances the past 18 months minus 2005 Europeans would have won the OGM over Shizuka, and that was Shizukas 2nd best ever competition.

    Cohen on her best day was also a better skater than Arakawa, but unfortunately only produced that in cheesefests.

    Asada was also a better skater than Shizuka already, but was kept out of the Olympics by the age rule.

    Kwan by 2006 was not a better skater than Shizuka, especialy under COP. Yet oddly she is the only one you list as better, when in reality of the ones you listed she is the only one who at that point wasnt.

    Shizuka was the best the day of the womens free skate at the 2006 Olympics, but I dont think she was the best skater at the event. The only time I might say that was the 2004 Worlds where she combined her skating skills and reasonably good artistry with the 3-3s, but she no longer really had the 3-3s under COP as they were too underrotated to even attempt in competition.
  26. MrLucky

    MrLucky Active Member

    If Irina BOMBED her Torino LP it hardly seems fair to downgrade Shizuka for that.

    You are discounting skating order.

    Had Irina skated first and instead of bombing had skated pretty well Shizuka certainly could have done a few things differently in her LP.

    For all of Irina's great skills when did she ever mangae to pull them off at the Olympics?

    Not in '98, not in 2002 (she didn't even try a 3x3 after Sarah tried two) and who knows what that horrendous skate we saw in Torino was supposed to be?

    If it's a sport then competing well at the biggest events matters.

    Adelina just won skating's Super Bowl. Shizuka won it in '06.

    Irina never won it because she never delivered a great Olympic LP.
    End of story.
  27. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    I did not downgrade anything you idiot. I only said IMO Irina on the whole was the better skater at that time and in general. Of course on that day Shizuka did the best performance and deserved the OGM, I never disputed that. Although on another note her short program was way overscored and should have been about 5 points lower than Slutskaya and Cohen (who both should have scored close to 70) which might have made a completely different event in the end, but anyway.

    Go back to whining about Wagner being at the Olympics over Nagasu.
  28. MrLucky

    MrLucky Active Member

    And you can continue with your opinions and name calling dear.

    It's easy to base opinions on reputation. I have no doubt that Shizuka's best skate would beat Irina's best skate.
    That is just my opinion and Irina certainly won more titles in her long career.

    I just prefer almost every aspect of Shizuka's best skating over Irina's best skating.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014
  29. taf2002

    taf2002 zexy demon

    I think you are forgetting a lot of the controversies. Potzsch's win was a huge controversy, and probably not just in the US. She should not have beat Linda in the free. It was widely suspected that her win was a trade-off for Cousins' win over Jan Hoffman. And Hughes' placement in the short counts as a controversy. I may be biased, but then I hated just about everything about her skating. And I don't know how Baiul's win could be called a minor controversy since the debate rages on to this day.
  30. MrLucky

    MrLucky Active Member

    Potzsch finished ahead of Linda in the figures. Linda won the SP.
    It was Denise Bielman who won the LP and even though Linda also beat Potzsch in the LP the ordinals worked against her.

    By the way, don't confuse Potzsch with Trixie Shuba. Annette was a decent free skater, miles better than Trixie.

    Frank always claimed "they buried Linda in the figures" which is why she did not win in Lake Placid.
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2014