Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Xela M, Mar 31, 2014.
Never mind - I found out... re: Rodnina racism. Fcuking hag.
She praised the anti gay Putin law put in. I dont remember the racist parts exactly, I think it was something that she didnt oppose black slavery. Xela M probably has the answer to this.
The Twitter pic of President Obama eating the banana was enough for me...
Ugh, that is disgusting. Nasty women.
Going back to her skating for a moment one thing I wasnt impressed by was how a team who relied totally on their technical ability (her and her teams artistry was always awful) it was pretty pathetic she never did a throw jump at a time many of her main competitors were doing 2, 3, or even 4.
Toller is a fantastically talented skater, and his books are fun gossipy fluff, but he really was Johnny Weir before Johnny was even born. 80% of the what he says is pure nonsense.
The protopopovs, G&G, m&d, B&S were all amazing skaters, truly beautiful to behold, but la rodnina's real legacy to the sport is this idea that no matter what, the sun will always rise in the morning, set in the evening, and a Russian pair will be ogm.
T&D made radical changes after not winning the FD at Europeans. I always wondered why U&Z didn't change theirs as well after coming in 2nd (or was was it 3rd?) there. It looked the same to me.
Well the changes T&D made didnt exactly work out well did it, so perhaps U&Z were smart to not change even if they ended up losing the Olympic Gold in the end as well. I think it was T&D who made a mistake changing everything after WINNING Europeans, and after the changes they got lower marks at the Olympics than they had at Europeans and 3rd place.
As for U&Z they lost Europeans by a flukish ordinal flip (they initially beat T&D in the FD, and G&P who won the FD were too far back to win, but an ordinal flip by G&P pushed U&Z behind T&D in the FD and dropped them to 3rd instead of 1st overall), otherwise would have won. So maybe they thought they only got unlucky there and didnt need a big change, but ended up wrong in the end ultimately. Anyway they hated each other so much by then, they probably wanted to spend as little time on the ice together as possible, even as they entered the biggest competiton of their careers. New programs or big changes = even more time together in practice and on the ice. Maya was so upset with the silver though she didnt even attend the post event medalists press conference and Zhulin was there alone.
Looking at the Europeans results and the Olympics results, it seems that Torvill & Dean had an unbeatable OD, Grishuk & Platov had an unbeatable free dance, and the overall results came down to the the CDs and how the other two teams fared against each other.
Pretty much. U&Z all but lost their chance at gold when G&P ended the CDs tied for 1st rather than tied for 2nd like they had at Europeans. They now had to hope for Rahkammo & Kokko to beat G&P in the OD as U&Z beating T&D in the OD or G&P in the FD seemed unlikely (although that said they very nearly did the latter to take the gold).
It is funny U&Z came closer to T&D in the OD at Europeans than the Olympics, when I thought they skated their OD much better at the Olympics than they had at Europeans. Maybe they were hurt by skating first in the 2nd last flight where T&D skated second last in the last flight.
I found it natural that U+Z changed their style in 1994. They wanted to show their edge; it worked for their K+P in 1992.
But it's also true their mutual loathing became palatable, and Z was putting more effort into "coaching" Navka than prepping for the most important competition... Four hours a day en route to another ice rink, it's said.
You gotta give it to him - he's a very thorough coach
I also think T&D were very foolish to change their free dance (for the worse) after they actually won Europeans. U&Z's free dance should have been scrapped altogether, so I don't think any changes would have been of use. I absolutely LOVED G&P's free dance - the incredible speed and audacity with which they performed it. I know people say it was a poor dance, but I have yet to see another performance by an "underdog" which would leave such an impression on me. They attacked the two legendary champion teams with all the impertinence and ignorance of youth and won!
T&D's ego is bigger than the whole of England, especialy Dean, so I wouldnt be surprised that they didnt win every program at Europeans with all 1st places and all perfect 6.0s even now in their mid 30s meant the FD had to be scrapped, even after a huge success (winning Europeans over their 2 main rivals for the Oly gold). Yeah I agree U&Z on the other hand should have scrapped their FD and started a whole brand new one. However as I said I doubt they wanted to spend that much extra time on the ice together which would be needed to do that, you really need to work overtime if you are creating a new FD to try and win Oly gold with in 6 weeks, and since they only lost Europeans on an unlucky and flukish ordinal flip they probably decided to just take their chances and see how it went.
Well he lost the Olympic gold by .1. Hope he thinks his 4 hours a day of driving, when he should have been prepping to get better for the Games after their Europeans failure, just to get an early start on whoring around with some girl who many years later divorced him after pulling a Zhulin on him was worth it.
As much as I love Grishuk & Platov, their rock'n'roll FD that year was choreographically one of the weakest free dances they ever did. It had moments of brilliance though and it was brilliantly youthful, exuberant, and jazzy. On the other hand, Usova & Zhulin had perhaps what was the most difficult free dance of their careers although it really sucked stylistically. I think perhaps Torvill & Dean reinstating was a mistake. They were already legends and so they didn't need another gold medal to solidify their status. But hey, if they hadn't returned, we wouldn't have seen that masterpiece of a rhumba.
They changed about 80% of the programme. Probably too much. But I can understand the rationale behind this. That's true they won Europeans, but it was the result of some strange rules. And they lost FD, so I'm not surprised they lost confidence and panicked. Probably if they hadn't changed the programme, they would have still lost. Maybe they would have been 2nd at best. We will never know. Changes of the programme made it more spectacular. And although the judges didn't like it, the spectators loved it (much more than during the Europeans).
I don't think it was mistake and I bet they don't regret it. They gained lots of new fans and it was a great promotion for their world tour that followed.
This!!! In my opinion it is the best OD/SD ever. So I'm really happy that they returned.
This post made me laugh - Zhulin galloping to get an early start
After the 91-92 season, Dubova's work started to become shoddier and shoddier. She's always been great at teaching good strong basics but her students' programs started to seriously suck after the fall of the Soviet Union. Her work with Navka & Gezalian was pretty good until they left her though. I vaguely recall at the 92 Worlds on the CBC commentary where Paul Martini mentioned how Dubova's choreographer (can't recall her name) had constructed amazing programs for Dubova's pupils. I wonder if Dubova stopped working with her at around that time. If that was the case, that might explain why her students' programs became rather second rate.
Yes to all of this! T&D's sense of entitlement made Lloyd Eisler look like prince charming.
Maybe or Pasha Grishuk broke her
Considering that t&d were treated like god's gift to the sport during their early 80s hay day, complete with historic all perfect marks at the olys, I'd say it isn't hard to imagine how one could get a little big headed.
B&E have two oly bronzes for horrendous mistake filled routines. 92 was a splat fest and 94 S&N wuz robbed IMO, so Lloyd's big head seems to have come from within. His skating was certainly nothing to write home about,
I wouldn't go that far. I think her students leaving her (due to her favouring Usova & Zhulin) and then becoming champions after leaving her started to wear her down. It happened with Klimova & Ponomarenko, Grishuk & Platov, and even Tatiana Navka (I believe she left Dubova after the 95 Worlds).
Usova & Zhulin should have won the gold easily. Torvill & Dean and Gritschuk & Platov are 2 of the best 5 teams ever along with Davis & White, Virtue & Moir, and Klimova & Ponomarenko, but Usova & Zhulin are too great a team to not have an olympic gold and have only 1 world title so the judges should have given it to them just based on that. Plus they were reigning world champions, Russian #1, and it was their turn. To give it to younger Russian #2 breaks all rules of dance. Anyway Gritschuk & Platovs free dance sucked, and their Rhumba sucked even worse. They should have won bronze behind Usova & Zhulin and Torvill & Dean. Had Rahkammo & Kokko not fallen in the FD they would have deserved the bronze over G&P.
Interesting of the 4 honest judges- 2 of them had it Usova & Zhulin gold, Torvill & Dean silver, Gritschuk & Platov bronze, 1 had Torvill & Dean gold, Usova & Zhulin silver, Gritschuk & Platov bronze, and 1 had it Usova & Zhulin gold, Gritschuk & Platov silver, Torvill & Dean bronze. So of the 4 real judges 3 of 4 had U&Z 1st, 3 of 4 had G&P only 3rd, and 0 of the 4 had G&P above U&Z. That is proof that without the 5 bloc judges that the final result would have very likely been Usova & Zhulin gold, Torvill & Dean, Gritschuk & Platov, and that for sure G&P would have finished below U&Z. The 5 bloc judges scored the exact same like a bloc that is cheating always does- 1st Gritschuk & Platov 2nd Usova & Zhulin, 3rd Torvill & Dean, proof that they were judging in a prearranged bloc. The 4 real judges despite showing clearly what the overall result would have been, still had 3 slightly different orders, proving that they werent bloc judging like the other 5 whose marks and results should have been discounted.
The ladies should not have awarded a gold medal. There wasnt a single skater who was gold medal caliber. Chen of 95-96, and Sato 95-96 were gold medal caliber skaters, but not here. Kerrigan never was. Baiul was so wonderful but not enough technical content yet for gold medal. Witt was wonderful and a legend but far too below modern day technical standards for gold.
Just give 5 or 6 women a bronze and be done with it. Maybe give Yamaguchi the gold and Ito the silver despite that they didnt compete.
In other words, they should have been dishonest, judging on reputation/potential/overall greatness rather than what each team put on the ice that day?
Your personal opinion. Probably based on your personal aesthetic taste.
Athletically, live in the arena, it was amazing.
How do you define "honest judges" -- those who agree with you? When you've already said that you think judges should have used dishonest criteria to choose the winner?
In 1994 Lloyd thought he should have won the Gold because the two other teams should have never been allowed to return to amateur competition
Haha several Olympic skating events never deserved to have an Olympic champion
Huh?! None of this makes any sense. Plus, the Soviet "block" (apart from Russia) put U&Z first. The only judge who put T&D first was British - hardly objective. Are you saying the judges from Canada, Germany, France, Czech Republic were less honest than judges from Belarus, Finland, Bulgaria and Ukraine?
I would have given S&N the bronze in 94 too, but lets also be real here. B&E did skate excellent in 1994, and would have some other Olympics, 1998 for instance, with the same skates. The 1994 pairs event was simply insane with such a deep field and almost everyone delivering their best those two nights. Referring to 1994 as a horrendous mistake filled routine is simply wrong. 92 yes.
One can easily make a good case for that. Going from a "gestalt" perspective (and not the perspective of any specific judging system), I think Chen Lu probably should have won overall, because Yuka messed up too badly in the SP. However, under 6.0, I would have ranked the LPs like this:
3. - 4. Baiul/Kerrigan (either order)
If you place Kerrigan 4th in the LP, then Yuka would end up with the gold, and Nancy would be off the podium. But if you place Kerrigan 3rd, then she would win the gold. Anyway, while I do think she deserved a medal, I don't think she deserved gold. Just because Nancy landed a triple toe-triple toe, that doesn't mean she automatically deserved to win. She had 5 pretty good jumps in a front-loaded program, and no flip. But what else??? Oh, yeah--a nice dress.
As for pairs, I enjoyed M&D much more than G&G, who were rather clinical IMO.
As for dance, I don't know who "should" have won, but it's a shame U&Z didn't have a better LP. I think they were probably the best dancers overall at that point, especially since T&D weren't quite as athletic as they had been previously.
My honest program placings are Sato, Chen, Kerrigan in that order in the LP too while agreeing with the SP results pretty much exactly. However since that would give Kerrigan the gold which I dont think she deserved, even if the program placings I think that were right lead to her getting that, I instead place Chen 1st in the long over Sato, to get Chen the gold instead. I also place Sato above Witt in the short or Baiul below Bonaly in the short to make sure Sato still gets the bronze despite my having to dump her from 1st to 2nd in the LP, which I think she deserved overall with that LP even with her flubbed short program, given that Baiul had serious mistakes in both programs (even if her short was stunning otherwise and probably deserving of 2nd place).