Tatiana Tarasova: I don't even consider working with the foreign skaters this season

[ninalovesskating]

This program looks very similar to Montreal style. Someone can confirm if Zulin is the choreographer? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lraKzMAtmQ0&t=130s
Two options, Sara choreographed it or she had important input. Maybe they should hire her as a collaborator, at least she could help them in acting and style, she has that ethereal style that is very popular nowadays. Yes, I know that everyone says that you are tired of that style, but at the end of the day, P / C have got medals and world record with that style for 3 seasons in a row. And it's not like Zhulin's style is good and / or innovative.

So far, I honestly think that this FD by Sara and Kirill is the only decent, tolerable program that's ever come out of Zhulin's coaching. Maybe Sara is the answer... Good music choice, good costumes, and nice choreography. Very flowy. I was quite impressed by them when I watched Euros. Way to go for a team on their first year together.

 

[MAXSwagg]

This program looks very similar to Montreal style. Someone can confirm if Zulin is the choreographer? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lraKzMAtmQ0&t=130s
Two options, Sara choreographed it or she had important input. Maybe they should hire her as a collaborator, at least she could help them in acting and style, she has that ethereal style that is very popular nowadays. Yes, I know that everyone says that you are tired of that style, but at the end of the day, P / C have got medals and world record with that style for 3 seasons in a row. And it's not like Zhulin's style is good and / or innovative.

But you can't simply "adopt" P/C style, as it's strictly their own. So the situation is much more complex.

 

[aftershocks]

So far, I honestly think that this FD by Sara and Kirill is the only decent, tolerable program that's ever come out of Zhulin's coaching. Maybe Sara is the answer... Good music choice, good costumes, and nice choreography. Very flowy. I was quite impressed by them when I watched Euros. Way to go for a team on their first year together.

@chapis' link to Hurtado/Khaliavin FD at Euros doesn't work for me. The below does:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whyg6C6vqCE

 

[chapis]

But you can't simply "adopt" P/C style, as it's strictly their own. So the situation is much more complex.

P/C style is the style of Montreal. You can see V/M, P/C, H/D and S/D skating and to know immediately that they train in the same place.

 

[MAXSwagg]

P/C style is the style of Montreal. You can see V/M, P/C, H/D and S/D skating and to know immediately that they train in the same place.

The point is that someone can try to emulate the style. That doesn't mean it's good.

 

[Rina RUS]

I was surprised, that somebody found such a strange reason to shout: "Nationalism!". Are you serious??? Is it OK, that each of them has a flag and (even worse!!!) an anthem?

 

[Karpenko]

IMO Russia could use more top ice dance coaches in general, there's a reason why so many teams are flocking abroad, there's only so many top coaches in Russia to choose from. The options seem a bit limited.

Which is strange, because they're still the heart of the world when it comes to art/beauty/dance IMO. It's not like they don't have the past champions and knowledge to help rebuild the program available, there should be new Tarasova's and Zhulin's in the making IMO.

If Pasha could be arsed to start coaching/choreographing again, I don't know why but I just think that she's the answer.

There are so many brilliant people who know their stuff about dance in Russia, I'd like to see more new faces (who know what they're doing) leading the way.

 

[VGThuy]

Isn't Pasha coaching in SoCal right now?

 

[Karpenko]

There's an opportunity in So Cal just sitting there on a golden platter for the Russian fed. Bring in Pasha, do something.

 

[caseyedwards]

IMO Russia could use more top ice dance coaches in general, there's a reason why so many teams are flocking abroad, there's only so many top coaches in Russia to choose from. The options seem a bit limited.

Which is strange, because they're still the heart of the world when it comes to art/beauty/dance IMO. It's not like they don't have the past champions and knowledge to help rebuild the program available, there should be new Tarasova's and Zhulin's in the making IMO.

If Pasha could be arsed to start coaching/choreographing again, I don't know why but I just think that she's the answer.

There are so many brilliant people who know their stuff about dance in Russia, I'd like to see more new faces (who know what they're doing) leading the way.

Well almost all the great champions of the past have left Russia and it seems current teams are banned from being coached by them!

 

[Karpenko]

Well, then they've kind of played themselves, haven't they? Time to turn off the ego and look at the reality. You can't be a snob when you don't have the same success as before.

Tarasova can't always be mother Teresa and wave her magic wand, they need more brilliant people for their future.

 

[taz'smum]

Well almost all the great champions of the past have left Russia and it seems current teams are banned from being coached by them!

I'd love to know where you get your 'facts' from about current Russian teams....

 

[Karpenko]

I should've known better than to trust that.

 

[caseyedwards]

A good point was made about all the extensive rinks that have been built and how they have all the funding for them but they can't recruit Russians from the United States to coach at them! But also for some reason right now no Russian team is being coached in North America when when most dancers in the world train in North America! So Russians can't recruit Russians to coach at their big facilities and Russians can't or wont train where the best coaches are! It's really unfortunate!

 

[Shiera]

Exactly! It's not about what it costs it's why it would be too expensive for Russians!

Tina GARABEDIAN / Simon PROULX-SENECAL ARM 2 Montreal Canada

Nicole KUZMICHOVA / Alexandr SINICYN CZE 5 Toronto Canada

Laurence FOURNIER BEAUDRY / Nikolaj SORENSEN DEN 6 Montreal Canada

Cecilia TÖRN / Jussiville PARTANEN FIN 8 Canton USA

Marie-Jade LAURIAULT / Romain LE GAC FRA 9 Montreal Canada

Tatiana KOZMAVA / Alexei SHUMSKI GEO 11 Ann Arbor USA

Kavita LORENZ / Joti POLIZOAKIS GER 12 Novi USA

Lilah FEAR / Lewis GIBSON GBR 13 Montreal Canada

Robynne TWEEDALE / Joseph BUCKLAND GBR 14 Novi USA

Adel TANKOVA / Ronald ZILBERBERG ISR 16 USA

Taylor TRAN / Saulius AMBRULEVICIUS LTU 22 Canton USA

Alisa AGAFONOVA / Alper UCAR TUR 30 Detroit USA

Alexandra NAZAROVA / Maxim NIKITIN UKR novi USA

Anybody know if this is because some of these people are as rich as Isabelle Tobias?

Well, most of these teams are the only ice dancers in their country, or even the only skaters who have some international results. We don't know who pays for their trainings (agree, it's easier for the fed. to find money to send just 1 team) maybe they have some sponsors, maybe parents cover part of the expenses.

The thing is that in Russia skaters are not really used to pay for trainings out of their own pocket. Especially skaters of the national-team level. And as for the federation, how should they explain to the Ministry of sports that their coaches aren't able to prepare the skaters well? Recent examples (Sinitsina/Katsalapov, Ilinykh/Zhiganshin) also speak not in favour of sending Russian ice dancers abroad.

 

[caseyedwards]

Well, most of these teams are the only ice dancers in their country, or even the only skaters who have some international results. We don't know who pays for their trainings (agree, it's easier for the fed. to find money to send just 1 team) maybe they have some sponsors, maybe parents cover part of the expenses.

The thing is that in Russia skaters are not really used to pay for trainings out of their own pocket. Especially skaters of the national-team level. And as for the federation, how should they explain to the Ministry of sports that their coaches aren't able to prepare the skaters well? Recent examples (Sinitsina/Katsalapov, Ilinykh/Zhiganshin) also speak not in favour of sending Russian ice dancers abroad.

This can be a part of it. Some of these teams are the only skaters with any potential in their countries so they get all the money to train in North America. But France just doesn't send p/c to North America it sends L/LG too! And they try to fund all disciplines in skating but know to send all its dancers to North America.

The results show Russia based and funded coaches can't prepare the teams for success anymore! First time ever no ice dance world medal before Olympics. First time ever no maximum spots in dance for Olympics. It doesn't matter what the federation says to the ministry if it did any research they can see Russia based coaches are now totally incompetent in senior Dance! While Russian coaches in North America are the most successful!

S/k trained in US 2014-2016 and I/z for 4 months. The 4 months I/z trained should be discounted. And both were new teams! sending b/S to North America would have been a real test! A long term partnership training with the best coaches.

 

[arakwafan2006]

This must be the real issue! Banning of Russian ice dancers from being coached by non Russian and non citizen Russians! Banning of coaching by emigres.

I'm surprised that they ( Russia)don't use Krylova more... not for Krylova but for Camerlengo. I've liked most of his dance work and since he, like MFD prefers a non cluttered and well thought out dance layout, I'd love to see him with skaters with stronger skills. I actually think Krylova is the weakest link in that team but Bobrova and Soloviev have good skating skills already and could likely pull off good things with Pasquale.

 

[arakwafan2006]

P/C style is the style of Montreal. You can see V/M, P/C, H/D and S/D skating and to know immediately that they train in the same place.

Tessa and Scott still have a lot of Canton in them.

 

[TAHbKA]

I'm surprised that they ( Russia)don't use Krylova more... not for Krylova but for Camerlengo. I've liked most of his dance work and since he, like MFD prefers a non cluttered and well thought out dance layout, I'd love to see him with skaters with stronger skills. I actually think Krylova is the weakest link in that team but Bobrova and Soloviev have good skating skills already and could likely pull off good things with Pasquale.

For the same reason they are not `using' Zueva or Shpilband more - the funding of sending a team to the USA.
Bobrova and Soloviev in particular - AFAIK none of them speaks English and Bobrova's husband is in Russia. I don't really see them moving anywhere. Frankly, I don't really see them changing/improving much even if they became the only team in Montreal for the next 10 years...

 

[arakwafan2006]

For the same reason they are not `using' Zueva or Shpilband more - the funding of sending a team to the USA.
Bobrova and Soloviev in particular - AFAIK none of them speaks English and Bobrova's husband is in Russia. I don't really see them moving anywhere. Frankly, I don't really see them changing/improving much even if they became the only team in Montreal for the next 10 years...

The funding could be overcome in an instant. Russia's Ice Dance eggs are all in that basket in terms of best chances at World's. I think that the exodus of the top teams from the Detroit Skating Club to Montreal and abroad were the nail in the coffin for Camerlengo and Krylova. They were just not able to do more with Kaitlyn and Andrew and the weakness of that team was in the elements which was really Krylova's so called expertise. Andrew was doing Twizzles like a dreidel among other weaknesses in the team that were glaring and lost ground big time. Also, they were skating very much so like they were next in line to win world's with the same old recycled thing which was a judgement call that cost them big time. I think that Camerlengo will be held back by his wife ( they're still married right?) since she is not as good at her supposed strength which is teaching elements as he is a coming up with creative and beautiful choreography. That said, If Camerlengo were working with Zhulin who does a pretty good job teaching dance, but is as uninspired with his choreography as Anjelica at elements, that could have worked for Bobrova and Soloviev.

I still wish Shpilband and Camerlengo would join forces. What do they have to lose? Igor is not what ANY artistically challenged team needs but much like MFD in Montreal, Pasquale is a master at coming up with beautiful themes for developing teams that are gorgeous to watch and that allow teams to find their style. To me, Igor's work is so stuck in the 90's. one thing that Tarasova did call RIGHT away when the Canton split happened was that both coaches would be fine without the other but never would they be as successful apart as when they were together. Marina has 3 coaches to try and compensate for 1 Igor and it's working OK, whereas Igor is using outside choreographers for top teams or worse, doing it himself and is largely unable to positively impact the overall look of a team which Marina could do no problem. The details that are important to Marina make the difference. I noticed for instance that even with Patrick, his stroking and how he maneuvers his hands ( something that simple) she changed because that's her thing!

I guess what i'm saying is, Bob/Sol stayed with Zhulin longer than they should have. They're comfortable and his best team right now and have been for a while. Zhulin like other coaches, and this is just my theory are sort of falling into the same arrogant trap as Linichuk in that they are so committed to doing things the old way/way they've always done them that they are not moving with the times which is causing their teams to suffer. Marina is the exception to the rule because at least she identifies her blind spot and has help for her skaters around the clock. That team of coaches ( Johnny Johns, Massimo Scali and Oleg Epstein) is getting stronger because, quite frankly, they had years to learn from the best teams ( Tessa/Scott, Meryl/Charlie, Shibs etc.) and to become more confident in how to approach dance teams and their roles within the team. Bob/Sol are a metaphor for staying with the wrong coach for too long, a coach that is too arrogant to admit weakness as well as possibly having limited Russian coaching options to suite their comfort level.

For the record, I do NOT think that Bob/Sol's best option is Marie-France, Patrice and Romain. I think that they would have kept Zueva relevant for a while longer had they went to Canton but there was NO WAY IN HELL the Shibs would have went along with that. BTW, I'm not certain that Maia and Alex have some lock on Marina taking on top level students but if they do, that's not a good thing for Marina. Also, ask me if i think the Shibs could use another coach? Another thread though...

 

[VGThuy]

The funding could be overcome in an instant. Russia's Ice Dance eggs are all in that basket in terms of best chances at World's. I think that the exodus of the top teams from the Detroit Skating Club to Montreal and abroad were the nail in the coffin for Camerlengo and Krylova. They were just not able to do more with Kaitlyn and Andrew and the weakness of that team was in the elements which was really Krylova's so called expertise. Andrew was doing Twizzles like a dreidel among other weaknesses in the team that were glaring and lost ground big time. Also, they were skating very much so like they were next in line to win world's with the same old recycled thing which was a judgement call that cost them big time. I think that Camerlengo will be held back by his wife ( they're still married right?) since she is not as good at her supposed strength which is teaching elements as he is a coming up with creative and beautiful choreography. That said, If Camerlengo were working with Zhulin who does a pretty good job teaching dance, but is as uninspired with his choreography as Anjelica at elements, that could have worked for Bobrova and Soloviev.

I still wish Shpilband and Camerlengo would join forces. What do they have to lose? Igor is not what ANY artistically challenged team needs but much like MFD in Montreal, Pasquale is a master at coming up with beautiful themes for developing teams that are gorgeous to watch and that allow teams to find their style. To me, Igor's work is so stuck in the 90's. one thing that Tarasova did call RIGHT away when the Canton split happened was that both coaches would be fine without the other but never would they be as successful apart as when they were together. Marina has 3 coaches to try and compensate for 1 Igor and it's working OK, whereas Igor is using outside choreographers for top teams or worse, doing it himself and is largely unable to positively impact the overall look of a team which Marina could do no problem. The details that are important to Marina make the difference. I noticed for instance that even with Patrick, his stroking and how he maneuvers his hands ( something that simple) she changed because that's her thing!

I guess what i'm saying is, Bob/Sol stayed with Zhulin longer than they should have. They're comfortable and his best team right now and have been for a while. Zhulin like other coaches, and this is just my theory are sort of falling into the same arrogant trap as Linichuk in that they are so committed to doing things the old way/way they've always done them that they are not moving with the times which is causing their teams to suffer. Marina is the exception to the rule because at least she identifies her blind spot and has help for her skaters around the clock. That team of coaches ( Johnny Johns, Massimo Scali and Oleg Epstein) is getting stronger because, quite frankly, they had years to learn from the best teams ( Tessa/Scott, Meryl/Charlie, Shibs etc.) and to become more confident in how to approach dance teams and their roles within the team. Bob/Sol are a metaphor for staying with the wrong coach for too long, a coach that is too arrogant to admit weakness as well as possibly having limited Russian coaching options to suite their comfort level.

For the record, I do NOT think that Bob/Sol's best option is Marie-France, Patrice and Romain. I think that they would have kept Zueva relevant for a while longer had they went to Canton but there was NO WAY IN HELL the Shibs would have went along with that. BTW, I'm not certain that Maia and Alex have some lock on Marina taking on top level students but if they do, that's not a good thing for Marina. Also, ask me if i think the Shibs could use another coach? Another thread though...

Were Johnny Johns and Oleg Epstein part of Canton while Igor was still there? I thought that they were, but I could be wrong about that. I thought an issue was that Igor wanted his fiancee to start doing choreography and build some new teams without Marina, and that also caused friction in the camp. We know Marina's history with collaborating with coaches.

I often wonder how C/B and the Shibs would have developed under BOTH Igor and Marina. I feel like Igor's strength, other than technical elements, are making sure the elements and transitions are full of content while Marina cleans it up and makes them more coherent and presentable and musical (if not original). Marina by herself seems to have emptier programs while Igor by himself is just full of movement with no sense or direction or meaning. I think the best thing the Shibs did for themselves is seek out outside choreography in Peter Tchernyshev and others while Marina did the "clean up" and editing. Massimo seems to work really well with them as well and somewhat filled the void that Igor left. I also wonder if taking Massimo hurt Camerlengo and Krylova.

About the Shibs using another coach, you mean a coach in addition to the Canton team? Who else would be available?

 

[Nikki Lee]

I love this:

"

ES: The ice dancers Bobrova/Soloviev became 5th, Stepanova/Bukin - 10th.
TAT: It's the best result they could have expected.

ES: I.e. it's the objective result?
TAT: You think they were undermarked?

 

[Vagabond]

I never knew Mother Theresa had a magic wand.