U.S. Ladies [#17]: Heading to Helsinki in a Handbasket

[bardtoob]

Oh the 20s. I think most if not all of us had big ups and downs in our 20s. One minute we're all youthful ambition and soaring talent, the next we're just not getting the job done. In the low moments we can tend to get self indulgent... Maybe if I went to the other schools, things would be better. Maybe if I took that other job, maybe if ___________ ....

Yep, the 20s.

 

[RockTheTassel]

Oh the 20s. I think most if not all of us had big ups and downs in our 20s. One minute we're all youthful ambition and soaring talent, the next we're just not getting the job done. In the low moments we can tend to get self indulgent... Maybe if I went to the other schools, things would be better. Maybe if I took that other job, maybe if ___________ ....

I'm twenty-five. This is painfully true. It's easy to second guess every decision made and think, "If only..."

Mirai has had like 4 different coaches and has had ups and downs with all of them. What's the common denominator here? Her best results were with Frank, but those were also her prime years, so who's to know....

One thing I recall Mirai discussing around 2010-2011 was how much Evan Lysacek was a positive influence on her, due to his intense commitment to training and hard working attitude. She mentioned that she struggled after he left because he wasn't there to motivate her anymore. I've wondered if she would have done better had Evan or someone with a similar drive been in her training environment. But of course, at some point she has to find that motivation from within.

 

[aftershocks]

Yes true @berthesghost. I am asking what impression others get from Scott's comments because I'm not sure exactly what he's suggesting. He seems to be intimating that more nurturing of Mirai was/ is needed rather than casting her away precipitously to focus exclusively on Rachael, then Gracie, then Polina, et al. I don't include Ashley because she's someone who pulled her own self up by her bootstraps. Ash has been the reliable one for quite sometime, giving U.S. ladies someone who can lead and also serve as backup.

IMO, that whole 2014 controversy was really about U.S. fed focusing exclusively on anointing Gracie, while also preferring new 'big beautiful' Polina over determined 'trying to redeem herself' Mirai. It really was never about Ashley vs Mirai (that was only the subterfuge). Again cruelly cast out, friends, fans and others in the skating community were very supportive of Mirai and she landed with Tom Z and has continued to prove her value (despite gossip against her). If Mirai didn't constantly have to be in defensive 'proving herself' mode, how much more might she have accomplished, or yet still be able to accomplish? I've always felt that her 2008 Nationals win was too soon. Give Mirai the silver and help her continue to grow instead of weighing her down with heavy expectations, when she was too young to go to Worlds anyway.

Even more so, don't expect her to be the second coming of Michelle Kwan. Sending her to Frank for grooming was okay, but not as a permanent coach, especially when it was clear early on that their personalities didn't click.

Therefore, I do not blame Mirai for all of her ups and downs. But sure, there does come a time when you have to seize the day consistently. She can't afford self-doubt, and she shouldn't worry about those who will never have her back refusing to believe in her.

 

[B.Cooper]

I was listening to Scott Hamilton's Episode 11 on IN: http://web.icenetwork.com/video/v1225269283
After the fun interview with Tanith & Charlie, Scott answers viewer questions, and then he offers his 'Final Spin.' Scroll to 21:32 for Scott's comments. What do others think Scott was saying exactly in discussing "the journey." My take is that in regard to Nathan, Scott is observing that the sky is the limit, and that Nathan is a fierce competitor who never lets up when he achieves success. It's always pedal to the medal for Nathan. IOW, Nathan's journey is not about stopping at random destinations, or doubting his GPS and his mapped-out plans. Per Scott: "It's how you plan your days and how you arrive at the promised land... Nathan has won at every level, and he's done so because every level was not a destination..."

In referencing Mirai Nagasu, in this context, Scott apparently is saying that her success has been up and down, but that her talent should be nurtured "and not just fall in love with the next big, beautiful thing." I think these are worthwhile points Scott is making. Although, I think there are too many factors involved to definitively characterize individual skaters' trajectories. Perhaps if Mirai had been with coaches who understood her personality earlier on, and could have provided the nurturing she needed, maybe her trajectory and overall journey would have been different. OTOH, it's not even certain that had Mirai moved to Tom Z immediately after 2010 Olympics that she would not have had her ups and downs. But it's possible he could have guided her at that point to greater success. However, Tom did still have Rachael Flatt at the time, so taking on Mirai at that point was not something anyone would have likely considered. Perhaps the timing worked out the way it did for a reason.

A lot of getting over hurdles for most skaters is about self-belief, gaining and learning from competitive experiences, and developing self confidence. I'm not certain who Scott was referencing re skaters 'extending their journey past where they can really be competitive.' Hmmm. Oh well, in any case, Scott is always positive, and he ended on the note that he cheers for these skaters too.

Inclined to agree with Scott re: Nathan Chen. Sky is the limit, as long as he stays healthy. Nathan is notorious for overtraining his jumps. There is a finite number of repetitions of jumps that the skeleton and cartilage/tendons/ligaments can absorb without adverse affects. His team will have to keep a close eye on his training so as to prevent over training.

Re: Mirai Nagasu and Scott's thoughts about "nurturing her, and not just fall(ing) in love with the next big thing." USFS has this legacy, of pushing the next great thing, especially in singles. I don't think that has held true for ice dance, but it certainly has for womens singles. Think about what brought in the big advertising $ over the years....the women's free skate, especially when it came to the Olympics. So, it is in USFS's best interest to promote the next great thing since sliced bread no matter how detrimental it is to the development of an athlete.

No matter who Mirai works with, I am not sure that any of the coaches would have had much impact from 2008-2015/2016. Mirai needs to want this, and is willing to put in all the work required. I think her lack of emotionally maturity has held her back for years. I am flashing back to the pressers both at US Nationals and at the Olympics...the difference between the two US ladies was readily evident. Flatt was thoughtful and genuinely in awe of being part of the Vancouver team ...sort of a "pinch me" moment, while Nagasu was, as many said, "refreshing" in her comments, though if you look back, she was just being Mirai...a teenager with very little filter at that age. It was who she was at that age, and some of that still carries thru even now.

Even if Mirai had moved to Zakrajsek in 2010, I am not sure it would have benefitted her a great deal. As the saying goes, if you are not receptive to advice, you can't make the changes.

Zakrajsek has never been known to be very thoughtful about the skaters' interests when taking on new students. He had Abbott, Bradley, Mroz, and then took on Aaron. At the same time, he had Flatt & Gilles, and took on Zawadski. And, this was in 2008-2010 (Abbott departed in spring/summer 2009). And, Zakrajsek's primary focus was Mroz leading into 2009/2010, as was well documented by observers in Colorado Springs. He now has Aaron, and it appears that V Zhou is staying on to train as well. Zakrajsek's approach has been to aggressively challenge the skaters by having others of similar caliber train together and against each other in daily training exercises. Some athletes thrive in that environment, others do not. And, to add to the mix, Patrick Chan arrived in Colorado Springs to train with Don Laws, and then Christy Krall and Kathy Johnson, and then just Johnson. For a few seasons, Colorado Springs probably had the greatest density of elite singles skaters training together of just about any rink. I think Mirai needs to have others push her...it is tough to train in isolation. But, she also needs the emotional maturity to address the voids in her performances. Her technically complete performance at 4CC is a start...but she has a lot of work ahead of her. Will be interesting to see if Zakrajsek can stay focused to help Nagasu make the 2018 team and not get distracted by "the latest and greatest".

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

I'm twenty-five. This is painfully true. It's easy to second guess every decision made and think, "If only..."



One thing I recall Mirai discussing around 2010-2011 was how much Evan Lysacek was a positive influence on her, due to his intense commitment to training and hard working attitude. She mentioned that she struggled after he left because he wasn't there to motivate her anymore. I've wondered if she would have done better had Evan or someone with a similar drive been in her training environment. But of course, at some point she has to find that motivation from within.

The one period I would not like to repeat is my 20's. So many false starts, quit when I should have stayed, stayed when i should have quit. By late 20's I started to get my act together, only because I was afraid "Is this going to end up like this?" (20's drama included)

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Yes true @berthesghost. I am asking what impression others get from Scott's comments because I'm not sure exactly what he's suggesting. He seems to be intimating that more nurturing of Mirai was/ is needed rather casting her away precipitously to focus exclusively on Rachael, then Gracie, then Polina, et al. I don't include Ashley because she's someone who pulled her own self up by her bootstraps. Ash has been the reliable one for quite sometime, giving U.S. ladies someone who can lead and also serve as backup.

IMO, that whole 2014 controversy was really about U.S. fed focusing exclusively on anointing Gracie, while also preferring new 'big beautiful' Polina over determined 'trying to redeem herself' Mirai. It really was never about Ashley vs Mirai (that was only the subterfuge). Again cruelly cast out, friends, fans and others in the skating community were very supportive of Mirai and she landed with Tom Z and has continued to prove her value (despite gossip against her). If Mirai didn't constantly have to be in defensive 'proving herself' mode, how much more might she have accomplished, or yet still be able to accomplish? I've always felt that her 2008 Nationals win was too soon. Give Mirai the silver and help her continue to grow instead of weighing her down with heavy expectations, when she was too young to go to Worlds anyway.

Even more so, don't expect her to be the second coming of Michelle Kwan. Sending her to Frank for grooming was okay, but not as a permanent coach, especially when it was clear early on that their personalities didn't click.

Therefore, I do not blame Mirai for all of her ups and downs. But sure, there does come a time when you have to seize the day consistently. She can't afford self-doubt, and she shouldn't worry about those who will never have her back refusing to believe in her.

I agreed with the decision in 2014. But, of late I've wondered how Mirai's trajectory would have changed if she had gone to Oly's. With what happened with Grcie this year I realized when USFS says 'yes' to one person's career they are saying 'no' to someone else's

 

[icellist]

and to everyone saying that Mirai is difficult to work with because of the coach hopping. She was first coached by Sandy Gollihugh who realized her talent and brought in Charlene Wong. Charlene Wong was great at teaching Mirai the 2A and other elements but the other jumps were still being UR. Then she went to Frank Carroll who helped Mirai through her sophomore slump to the Olympics. Their relationship was still good through the end of the 2010-2011 season, but Frank's stay at Toyota Sports Center in El Segundo was only temporary until he moved to Palm Springs at the end of the '10-'11 season and onwards. Palm Springs is over 2 hours away from Arcadia, where Mirai lived with her parents who did not want her to move out yet (respect the parent's decision whether you disagree with it or not, it is not your situation to judge). Frank and Mirai amicably separated because the drive was too much after the '11-'12 season and referred Mirai to two coaches (Amy Evidente and Wendy Olson) closer to Mirai but had not coached anyone else of notoriety which was evident through the season: biggest example would be having Mirai having the same combination spins in the SP and FS when Mirai is a great spinner with many variations. I don't think Mirai trusted the Evidente and Olson team to be able to take her to the Olympics that year and forged ahead with what she had and knew: a working relationship with Takeshi Mura and the ballet coach she had while she was with Frank in El Segundo (I forgot her name, it was Russian).

Because of this "coach-hopping" and rumors spread around about Mirai being lazy which from what I can pinpoint was from the first time she met with Frank for the new season, he wanted her to do a full run-through and she wouldn't AND when Frank moved to Palm Springs and she was tired from the drive already to train. Do I think Tom Z is the best coach for Mirai? No. But I do believe Frank and his innate influence with USFSA stopped many other coaches from accepting Mirai (If the great Frank can't fix you, how can we, mentality). If anything, Mirai's directly bad choices were keeping the Tanzarin Tango, Spartacus, and James Bond programs throughout those season...

Also to note: after Frank moved, John Nicks and Rafael Arutunian were the only high-level coaches around in Southern California. John Nicks already had Ashley Wagner and Rafael was at Arrowhead, before the Arrowhead rink closed down (still a 1hr 30min drive). Other notable coaches were Karen Kwan/Peter Oppegard (with Caroline, Yuna, and mostly juniors or pairs) and Tammy Gambill (whose skaters are always on the brink of international success)

 

[GullyGirl84]

It's pretty funny when you think about it that Mirai's best Nationals finish in the last few years was when...she didn't have an official coach. Sure, it didn't end up being enough to make the Olympic team in 2014, but I think she figured out that something wasn't working with her coaching team, and pulled herself up to medal in her 2nd Grand Prix (even though her coach was still at the event with her, she had been working with Mura's father) and medal at Nationals. A lot of others (Christina, Agnes, Samantha) came and went, and Mirai's still around. If she doesn't make the Olympic team next year, she will probably still be in the conversation (yes you could also say that points to weakness in the field as a whole. Her LPs are still empty as sin and I feel like she'll never be an early season skater). Even though Frank and Mirai's split could be attributed partly to her immaturity, it seems to have gone down better than the Frank/Gracie split...

 

[Sylvia]

Frank and Mirai amicably separated because the drive was too much after the '11-'12 season

Nagasu also had the occasional lesson with Arutunian up in Lake Arrowhead that season (she mentioned him in her pre-2012 Nationals media teleconference call.

... forged ahead [in 2013-14 season] with what she had and knew: a working relationship with Takeshi Mura and the ballet coach she had while she was with Frank in El Segundo (I forgot her name, it was Russian).

Galina Barinova.

 

[VGThuy]

If I remember correctly, in Frank's interview with TSL he mentioned that Mirai and his break up was not on bad terms and he expressed a lot of sympathy for her situation at the time. He didn't go into any detail but he was suggesting there were real issues (I think monetary issues was one) she was dealing with at the time. So her leaving Frank was not due to her attitude or laziness or whatever some fans tried to assume.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

Yes true @berthesghost. I am asking what impression others get from Scott's comments because I'm not sure exactly what he's suggesting. He seems to be intimating that more nurturing of Mirai was/ is needed rather than casting her away precipitously to focus exclusively on Rachael, then Gracie, then Polina, et al. I don't include Ashley because she's someone who pulled her own self up by her bootstraps. Ash has been the reliable one for quite sometime, giving U.S. ladies someone who can lead and also serve as backup.

IMO, that whole 2014 controversy was really about U.S. fed focusing exclusively on anointing Gracie, while also preferring new 'big beautiful' Polina over determined 'trying to redeem herself' Mirai. It really was never about Ashley vs Mirai (that was only the subterfuge). Again cruelly cast out, friends, fans and others in the skating community were very supportive of Mirai and she landed with Tom Z and has continued to prove her value (despite gossip against her). If Mirai didn't constantly have to be in defensive 'proving herself' mode, how much more might she have accomplished, or yet still be able to accomplish? I've always felt that her 2008 Nationals win was too soon. Give Mirai the silver and help her continue to grow instead of weighing her down with heavy expectations, when she was too young to go to Worlds anyway.

Even more so, don't expect her to be the second coming of Michelle Kwan. Sending her to Frank for grooming was okay, but not as a permanent coach, especially when it was clear early on that their personalities didn't click.

Therefore, I do not blame Mirai for all of her ups and downs. But sure, there does come a time when you have to seize the day consistently. She can't afford self-doubt, and she shouldn't worry about those who will never have her back refusing to believe in her.

You can make the paragraphs as long as you want,my eyes still glaze over.

-BB

 

[skatesindreams]

Her mother was ill at the time, IIRC; and Mirai may not have wanted to be separated by a long distance.

In Frank's interview with TSL he mentioned that Mirai and his break up was not on bad terms and he expressed a lot of sympathy for her situation at the time. He didn't go into any detail but he was suggesting there were real issues

 

[aftershocks]

You can make the paragraphs as long as you want,my eyes still glaze over.

Good, then it should extend to your brain glazing over too.

 

[Brenda_Bottems]

Good, then it should extend to your brain glazing over too.

Bless. I'm blaming my glazed over mind on POLINA EDMUNDS withdrawls,please come back and save USA ladies!

-BB

 

[icellist]

Sorry if I made it seem like Frank was going after Mirai, making sure no coach would accept her. That was not my intention. But rather, that they had an understanding split (very different compared to Frank and Gracie's situation). But Tom Z did express that many other coaches told him about the difficulties working with Mirai which I think is all from the white lie rumor mill. Once again, I'll say that a lot of the other coaches probably had the mentality that "if Frank can't fix her, no one can". When in reality, Mirai was doing more off-ice training with Evidente than she was with Frank. And was independent enough to finish the olympic season by herself/no head coach.

 

[Bill Trenary]

You can make the paragraphs as long as you want,my eyes still glaze over.

-BB

I think that's the Cognac, Alexis

 

[topaz]

Karen said on NBC that she has very flat feet. I guess meaning she has a low arch? It may be particularly difficult for her to find a good-fitting boot.

I am hoping she is usually ortho. inserts and exercises to help correct this. I have flat feet too and I know arch supports and exercises have helped me alot. My arch has gotten stronger.

 

[VGThuy]

Karen Chen is in Canton right now according to Marin Honda's Instagram (she's also in Canton). Maybe her "brother" recommended that she go there.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Working with Marina and staff on her programs and/or her 3/3 jump technique? Did she have her boots checked out? Has she also added some sessions with her sports psychologist?

Please bring back your Quiet Assassin persona Karen! Your sp was so gorgeous at U.S. Nationals. Shake off the nerves and feel the music again. Good luck at Worlds.

 

[analia]

Most 20s mistakes are due to not having enough funds/information to actually make a winning decision for yourself. I always have strong sympathy for Mirai because quite clearly a lot of bad choices she made could easily be avoided if she had come from a wealthier family that could afford to devote more resources and attention to her skating career. Mirai never had a skating mom doing some of the work for her. It's inspiring she's made this far. Still, I think she could benefit from getting an agent and some sponsorship, even crowdsourcing if she has to. A few extra thousand bucks to get a dance coach and additional choreographic help would really help her PCS.

 

[berthesghost]

Perhaps, but considering that Mirai and Gracie have almost eerily ended up in the same place results wise kinda shows that funding and mom-involvement aren't guarantees for success.

 

[RockTheTassel]

In terms of sponsors and funding, Mirai has also had it better than many skaters. And her choreography itself isn't really the problem - it's skating clean and selling the program that needs work. If she could do that, she'd be in a much better place.

 

[Sylvia]

Still, I think she could benefit from getting an agent

Nagasu has been with IMG for many years now (eta: Yuki Saegusa is the agent listed on her official website).

Also with IMG are Karen Chen (after 2017 Nationals) and Gracie Gold. Wagner switched to CAA in the past year.

http://web.icenetwork.com/fans/icetalk
Ep. 21: Meryl Davis & Charlie White/Mariah Bell (her interview starts around the 30-minute mark)

... U.S. bronze medalist Mariah Bell joins the podcast to talk about what she likes (and doesn't like) about living in Los Angeles and her expectations for the world championships later this month in Helsinki, Finland.

 

[B.Cooper]

Most 20s mistakes are due to not having enough funds/information to actually make a winning decision for yourself. I always have strong sympathy for Mirai because quite clearly a lot of bad choices she made could easily be avoided if she had come from a wealthier family that could afford to devote more resources and attention to her skating career. Mirai never had a skating mom doing some of the work for her. It's inspiring she's made this far. Still, I think she could benefit from getting an agent and some sponsorship, even crowdsourcing if she has to. A few extra thousand bucks to get a dance coach and additional choreographic help would really help her PCS.

Mirai has been extremely fortunate over the last several seasons as she has a sponsor that pays almost all of her expenses, from skating as well as living expenses (apartment, transportation, general living expenses). Take note of the change in her costumes over the last few years....totally bedazzled ;-) And, she does have an agent, as she is represented by IMG (Yuki Sakgusa has been her agent for years...perhaps going back as far as 2008 IIRC).

It isn't an issue of working with a dance coach, more choreographic help...it is an issue of how she trains, and if she has the ability to focus on all components of her skating. The choreography and performance has to be trained in, just as muscle memory for technical elements is trained. At this point, it isn't about the cost of lessons ;-)

And, mom involvement, at the age Mirai, and Gracie for that matter, has nothing to do with it. These young adults have to want it, and be willing to embrace the necessary changes.

 

[Sylvia]

Karen Chen is in Canton

Here's Karen's photo on her Instagram of the Canton, Michigan group (includes Gracie Gold and Denney/Frazier): https://www.instagram.com/p/BRJu52SD1R-/
"Had such a wonderful time in Michigan! Hope to be back soon!"

 

[Marco]

http://emorywheel.com/the-snowball-effect-why-nagasu-should-compete-at-worlds-but-wont/

An interesting read about world team selection. I agree it's often too early to name the world team right after Nationals.

Specifically though, I don't know if Mirai should be picked for Worlds simply based on 4CCs. In the four seasons in which she competed in Feb (2010 Olympics, 2011, 2016 and 2017 4CCs) she had been great in the event (discounting 2014 due to the emotional letdown). But in the two seasons in which she competed in Mar/Apr for Worlds (2010, 2016), her performance would drop from Jan or Feb. I am just not sure if how she competed in Feb could be indicative of how she would compete in Apr.

Having said that, I am still willing to bet on her over Karen, who has been even more inconsistent / unpredictable. It's just harder to leave the National Champ home even after a poor 4CCs. Would have been so much easier if Karen only got the silver at Nationals .

From a strategic standpoint, it is a little risky to send two newbies to Worlds in a pre-Olympic year.

 

[olympic]

I agreed with the decision in 2014. But, of late I've wondered how Mirai's trajectory would have changed if she had gone to Oly's. With what happened with Grcie this year I realized when USFS says 'yes' to one person's career they are saying 'no' to someone else's

My thoughts are - How would Mirai's trajectory have changed if she got a medal at 2010 Worlds. It was wide open for her to grab bronze: A rotated 2A in the LP would've done the trick. Then next season, at 2010 TEB, she was a layback spin away from grabbing her first GP win, and a clean 2A + Combo spin away from getting on the 2011 Worlds team.

 

[VGThuy]

http://emorywheel.com/the-snowball-effect-why-nagasu-should-compete-at-worlds-but-wont/

An interesting read about world team selection. I agree it's often too early to name the world team right after Nationals.

Specifically though, I don't know if Mirai should be picked for Worlds simply based on 4CCs. In the four seasons in which she competed in Feb (2010 Olympics, 2011, 2016 and 2017 4CCs) she had been great in the event (discounting 2014 due to the emotional letdown). But in the two seasons in which she competed in Mar/Apr for Worlds (2010, 2016), her performance would drop from Jan or Feb. I am just not sure if how she competed in Feb could be indicative of how she would compete in Apr.

Having said that, I am still willing to bet on her over Karen, who has been even more inconsistent / unpredictable. It's just harder to leave the National Champ home even after a poor 4CCs. Would have been so much easier if Karen only got the silver at Nationals .

From a strategic standpoint, it is a little risky to send two newbies to Worlds in a pre-Olympic year.

That article is awful. I hope the writer will sign up for more writing courses at Emory.

 

[Coco]

My thoughts are - How would Mirai's trajectory have changed if she got a medal at 2010 Worlds. It was wide open for her to grab bronze: A rotated 2A in the LP would've done the trick. Then next season, at 2010 TEB, she was a layback spin away from grabbing her first GP win, and a clean 2A + Combo spin away from getting on the 2011 Worlds team.

I think even having that last 2a called as a rotated 2a with a fall would have been enough for 3 spots, which would have had Mirai at the 2011 Worlds even with her actual 2011 Nationals skate.

I believe she would have had to place 8th to secure 3 spots for 2012...

 

[clairecloutier]

I think even having that last 2a called as a rotated 2a with a fall would have been enough for 3 spots, which would have had Mirai at the 2011 Worlds even with her actual 2011 Nationals skate.

Weird. Mirai's career has felt so star-crossed at times ....