Yuzuru Hanyu to be coached by Brian Orser

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by Sylvia, Apr 25, 2012.

  1. l'etoile

    l'etoile New Member

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    If "more often than not" part in aliceane's statement is altered with a phrase like "some times" or "there are some cases," I think it is a legitimate argument which I can totally agree with.

    Thanks for the great posts kwanfan1818 and aliceane.
     
  2. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

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    You are correct, I should have qualified it differently. I also regretted posting it afterwards as I didn't want to draw the thread away from Hanyu. Plus many of the splits have been analyzed to death and no one but those directly involved will ever know for sure. While I don't believe in conspiracy theories as deeply as OS168, I do agree that elite skating is a business.
     
  3. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    Sorry, but how can one believe it is a business yet chose not to believe in common tactics frequently used in businesses? What is the difference between smart subversive tactics vs conspiracy?

    People have been trying to undermine my analysis of a business matter and made into a 'conspiracy'. When the arrangements and reasons are more simple, and the word conspiracy/strategy/collaboration are hardly different. I personally think what happened has less to do than to do with personal feelings and egos between coach and student but more about rivaled nations interests mixed with business opportunities driven by profit.

    What I have seen is Yuna has been trying to set up a stable for Korean skaters for the future of Korean skating by keep shipping Korean skaters to the cricket club likely at her own considerable expense, but a practical minded coach must have realised the amount of work and effort and importantly the 'unlikely hood' he will able to get a second gold following that approach so he have kept some back doors open and when there are easier way get what he want offered via a persuasive agency that makes more sense, he took it by renewed his contract. It is just a practical business matter from all parties, particularly JSF who pretty much finished rival nation's interest in one shot. All these talk about personal feelings and egos are really by product of these conflicting business interests, easily manipulated by media savvy organisation who are very good at manipulating results and public awareness to a favorable outcome.

    On some level, we would all like to think the best of people, but in the real world, rivalry is real in sport and in businesses. Profit are gained by the ones who can make it happen. The smart and the ruthless are the ones who survives and wins.
     
  4. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    That's because your "analysis" has more holes in it than a slice of swiss cheese.
     
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  5. os168

    os168 Active Member

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  6. ponta1

    ponta1 Active Member

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    :rolleyes: Really, now?
     
  7. AJ Skatefan

    AJ Skatefan Well-Known Member

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    Maybe, but the holes are pretty big.
     
  8. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    :rolleyes: Please go and take a look at IMG's website, which you obviously haven't done because it would blow even bigger holes in your ridiculous conspiracy theory. Orser's contract with them is as a speaker . Unless his speeches include secret subliminal messages to Japanese skaters to come to his rink, and/or secret subliminal messages to Korean skaters to fall down a lot, that hardly supports anything you are saying about this "persuasive agency".
     
  9. os168

    os168 Active Member

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    LOL... yeah right, because that is what Orser excel at... as a speaker. And how much is 10% of his speaker fee a year justify signing him? They'd lucky to get $1000-$3000 a year based on 'speaking roles' according to your theory. How much does create a contract cost for lawyer's fee again?

    Clearly you have no idea how business works, or why they kept sending him exclusively IMG client students.
     
  10. os168

    os168 Active Member

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  11. professordeb

    professordeb Well-Known Member

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    Any chance this topic can head back to it's original set of posts before it was hijacked by a certain poster? Each time I come in here it is with the hope that somehow this topic has veered back to Orser and Hanyu. Alas, it's just more conspiracy ... le sigh ... one can always hope, I guess.
     
  12. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    You obviously keep missing the part about how agencies like IMG have hundreds, if not thousands, of clients, and that is how they make profits, based on 10% commission for each one. And speakers that are popular at corporate events can make a LOT of money - a lot more than you seem to think.

    I guess my tinfoil hat is not as tight as yours :rolleyes:
     
  13. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Every elite-level coach-skater relationship is public in some degree and each split, amicable or not, will draw its share of publicity and speculation. True, Orser-Kim drew a lot of public attention and media coverage leading up to the Olympics, but the biggest reason the split got so much publicity was in the extraordinary manner with which Orser handled it. He had come back to media spotlight in more than a decade and this time with good publicity with him making a golden journey with Kim, then ended the relationship for good with emotional mayhem. What a shame.
     
  14. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    I wanted to gain some perspective on what had transpired between them, by collecting what had been said and done by the related parties before/during/after the event. 90% of what I wrote in my previous post was on the facts. You label it as a konspiracy theory, I call it seeing the events in perspective. Like I said before at the time of the split, I have no problem with anybody making a business decision to suit his needs and I feel no need to blame anybody for doing that, but I may still have some strong opinion about how and in what manner the related parties had been treated or affected in the process.

    Speaking of Rippon’s awareness of “the situation” at the time of his comment, who the big client of the club was, or would be, was a matter of no small significance to Rippon as to its implication on his own training and show skating opportunities. Kim had a big presence in the club and given the history of conflicts between her and the Japanese skaters/federation, it’s not a stretch to assume he had a good idea re what was straining the relationship as well. Not just Rippon, it’s likely the rest of the regulars of the club had been aware of the situation too. That’s why I thought Orser’s words were total baloney when he said he was fired out of the blue without given proper reasons. Or, if he had truly meant what he said, I would call his emotional maturity into question.

    About her mum, what's the point treating her as a separate party from Kim as far as Kim’s decision was concerned, when it would be safe to assume the interest/position of the mum as the manager and agent was basically consistent with Kim's? Are you suggesting the outcome would have been different had it not been for the mum? It's not like the mum arrived new at the club and changed the scene all of a sudden. I didn’t buy it when Orser was painting Kim as a puppet of an intrusive skating mum while putting the blame on her. First, his bashing the mum was not really relevant as to the reason that led to Kim’s decision to split with him. Second, to me Kim seems to be the kind of person who is keen on being in control of the given situation, in practice, in competition or in her off-the-ice activities. When Kim cried out “I know what’s going on!” in her short-lived twitter message, it was clear to me she had a firm grasp of the situation she was under in making her decision.

    No matter what their differences were, Kim followed the guidelines on making a coaching change, as one columnist wrote -- she did not begin lessons with, or a search for, someone else before notifying her coach. It still would have made a big news and invited a lot of speculation had the split been done quietly, but the way Orser ended it with the series of attack on Kim and the mum made it bigger and noisier than what it would have been. Not only he attacked Kim, he went as far as to touch upon two of the sensitive parts in any competitive skater's trades -- program music and the costume designer. I don’t think it was mere slips of the tongue but meant to be threats and it made Kim issue an immediate warning, which made Orser stop talking and divert contacts to his attorney.

    The whole incident must have been an alerting experience for Kim. After she moved to LA, when the Nippon TV crew was caught sneaking into Kwan’s rink to tape Kim preparing for 2011 Worlds and then went on to air the video clip with Minoru Sano commentating on the grainy footage “Looks like she’s practicing a new choreographic routine,” with a serious face lol, Kim’s agent ATS sent a strong protest, demanding an on-air apology and threatened to block the TV company’s future access to Kim’s interviews and press conferences, and also said it would submit a request to the JSF and ISU for a sanction on the TV company.

    AFAIK Orser didn’t have a contract with Kim, and charged her by hour. With Hanyu I guess his agent would have an income sharing scheme negotiated into a contract, considering the comments he made during the split with Kim. In an interview with Hersh, Orser said “Financial issues had nothing to do with the split,” but later added “I’m the lowest paid coach at this level in the history of figure skating. I get $110 an hour, and that is what I charged her. I did make something from Korean commercials, but there was no deal between us for that.” In other interview he said a coach in his level earns 30% of skater’s income. I think it’s also possible to see him listed as a director in some shows (eg SOI Japan) in the future, as he had been in a couple of Kim’s pre-ATS shows.

    To have an idea what the training environment is like at the Cricket Club, there was an interview article with Japan Times Orser provides insight into making of a champion released two months prior to the Olympics, Orser talked about Kim's training and the key persons in the team, including some comments on Kim’s mum (funny how it sounds at places like a marketing talk lol). From the interview it sounds like he was more like a team manager than a coach rigorously involved in the development of a skater, which could be actually good for Hanyu. It worked fine with Kim (she said she preferred a coach who’s not rigid in forcing his own way on a skater), and from Hanyu’s interview it seems he and JSF share similar expectation.
     
  15. Marco

    Marco Missing Ziggy

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    Did Hanyu explain how the commute would work? Coz I seem to remember reports that he would stay for school in Japan.
     
  16. Ozzisk8tr

    Ozzisk8tr Well-Known Member

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    Wow! Do you write for the Revenge series? How does Victoria fit in? :confused:
     
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  17. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    :lol: I had been using a lot of patience before posting in this thread, reading thru and amazed by all the insensitive and nonsensical comments made re Kim-Orser split with an air of indifference on the truly outrageous verbal and psychological abuse inflicted on a skater by a coach.

    My rant is over until I encounter another series of nonsense.

    Re Hanyu's commuting, I assume him planning to stay in Canada for choreographic works and near season training, or is he in Toronto already?
     
  18. overedge

    overedge Well-Known Member

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    You know, repeating the same set of "facts" over and over again doesn't make them any more true, or any more convincing.
     
  19. kwanfan1818

    kwanfan1818 I

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    Given the dearth of competitive figure skaters in Korea now, Orser's choice, until Kim fired him, was to put all of his eggs in one basket without a revenue-sharing agreement; now he gets to coach competitive Japanese skaters. The pipeline is in no danger of running out any time soon. I think he's landed on his feet very well.

    Hanyu is likely just the first.
     
  20. lowtherlore

    lowtherlore New Member

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    Well, is he already in Toronto or not? Where are all these Japanese posters who'd have been mighty interested in his whereabouts.
     
  21. fan

    fan Well-Known Member

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    i can confirm that he is in toronto and skating with brian.
     
  22. Dragonlady

    Dragonlady Well-Known Member

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    And you clearly have no idea of the history between the Cricket Club and the Japanese federation which has been sending skaters to the Cricket Club and the Mariposa Club every summer since sometime in the 1990's in order to jump start their program. Other than the year SARS hit the GTA, there have been Japanese skaters competing at Thornhill every summer for as long as I've been going to Summer Skate, which was sometime in the late 1990's.

    The Korean federation was actually emulating the Japanese federation in sending a large contingent of skaters to the Cricket Club when Yu-Na was training there, seeing how successful the Japanese summer program had been for their skaters.

    This whole notion that anyone at the Cricket was sneaking around behind the backs of the Korean federation to entice the Japanese federation to send students is just laughable. The Cricket would be unlikely to blow off a long-standing relationship with the Japanese federation for just one skater, even if that skater was Yu-Na Kim.
     
  23. jjane45

    jjane45 Active Member

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    Thanx! At this young age, I bet Hanyu will learn English very quickly. But will they work with an interpreter in the early stages?
     
  24. fan

    fan Well-Known Member

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    I don't know Hanyu's level of English, but perhaps Shin Amano will be on hand to help out at the beginning? Cricket coaches tend to team coach normally, so it might be helpful having Shin around. Just conjecture on my part, nothing confirmed.
     
  25. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    Isn't Shin Amano working at Granite?
     
  26. arakwafan2006

    arakwafan2006 Active Member

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    Its not looking promising
     
  27. fan

    fan Well-Known Member

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    switched to the cricket this season
     
  28. seabm7

    seabm7 Active Member

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    This IS a piece of news to me! Thanks.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2012
  29. ratatouille

    ratatouille New Member

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    :respec:
     
  30. ratatouille

    ratatouille New Member

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    True ! and totally Agree