Ross Miner

Discussion in 'Great Skate Debate' started by muffinbiscuit, Dec 4, 2010.

  1. chipso1

    chipso1 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2004
    Messages:
    9,012
    Ditto for Lysacek, who was the U.S. #3 heading into the 2005 Worlds and then skated away with a bronze medal in Moscow.
     
  2. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    9,054
    It's normally the case, but this year, I doubt all of Ryan, Miner and DOrnbush declined. I suspect the selection committee picked 4-6 without asking #1-3, but that's imho. I just think if you're developing new team, do it all the way and not half-half (like sending them to world but giving them minimal experience beforehand).

    I think we're debating over two questions in this thread: 1) Whether this year's selection is fair (considering USFS tradition, this is fair). I think it's a moot point because the team is picked based on what skaters already know to be the criteria.

    2) WHat should be the ideal current selection criteria? HOnestly there is none. As seen from the past, each selection criterion is bounced to flop at some point. Miki got her 06 O spot based on her international showing and she got 16th at Olympics. OTOH, the Japanese based their junior world selection on junior nationals and sent its winner, Mari Suzuki, to JW in 09 and she didn't even qualify for the free skate. So basing selection heavily on one criterion makes the selection inflexible and it's bounced to fail at some point.

    But I think allowing some consideration to winners of big internationals does allow some flexibility in selection in close cases when great results (like winning gpf) speak for themselves. I'm not saying someone who places 7th at nationals and medals at 4cc should be sent.

    ETA: Just to clarify, I am not arguing over Jeremy's spot. He did himself in, and I'm a big fan.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2011
  3. Mayra

    Mayra Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 19, 2001
    Messages:
    7,646
    The way the current rule is being enforced is the most clear cut way to pick the World/Olympic team. IMO Any other way leaves too much room for :argue:(not that it is stopping us now) and has the potential for a PR trainwreck. The USFS has been extremely consistent in their selection. Going into Nationals every skater hoping to make the World team knows the score and they know what they have to do to get there. Jeremy just didn't cut it.

    The wording of the selection criteria is unfortunate, because it does leave room for interpretation, but it's evident that the USFS chose to do it this way to get the USOC off their back. It also allows them wiggle room for extraordinary cases like Michelle Kwan in 2006. I like Jeremy, but he is no Michelle Kwan.

    This is the post-Olympic season and I see no reason why the USFS should hold Jeremy's hand going into Worlds. Particularly as his results thus far have been less than stellar on that stage. JMO
     
  4. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    9,054
    I do agree Jeremy did himself in. No argument there.

    I've been thinking of cases where top national placements do poorly at worlds or jr worlds. Like Mari Suzuki. Perhaps there is an occasional difference between the opinin of one's own national judges and international judges. Could inviting some intl judges to judge US nationals solve this issue?
     
  5. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    31,964
    There are international judges judging at US Nationals every year. Or do you mean international judges from outside the US?
     
  6. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    9,054
    Yes, that's what I mean. Thank yuo.
     
  7. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    16,781
    Well, you've made it very clear you have trouble believing that this is what the athletes want. :lol:

    But, I've talked to them. (It was part of my research to decide how to vote on the issue at Governing Council a number of years ago.) And, as hard as it is for you to imagine, they don't agree with you.

    Likewise, USFS ... as you point out by your very own logic ... doesn't agree with you that the sole purpose of Worlds is to send the very best team with no other considerations. There are other considerations that factor into it.
     
  8. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2002
    Messages:
    1,311
    I assume they assigned #4-6 to Four Continents because this was an extremely rare circumstance where 4-6 were expected to finish more like 1-3. It would have been better for 1-3 to have been sent to 4CC to prepare for Worlds, but I don't think they wanted 4-6 to go home empty-handed, considering the credentials of those skaters (specifically Abbott and Rippon).

    I agree with this. But it's just kind of funny that people rip apart Abbott for his 11th places at his first trips to Worlds when people will be thrilled for Miner if he does the same thing here. :lol:

    I'm not sure who you've spoken to, but it's hard to believe someone like Alissa Czisny who won a GP, medaled at another, and won the GPF, wouldn't prefer for that to come into consideration in the selection of the World team. Last season, Ashley Wagner publicly stated that she hoped her good results on the GP and her qualifying for the GPF would factor into Olympic selection... I'm sure when Abbott won the GPF and when Lysacek won the GPF that they wanted that to be considered... I'm sure Flatt would have preferred that her medaling in both GPs and making the GPF was considered this season... Bottom line is, I can't imagine ANY skater who has had any sort of success internationally would want that erased from USFS's minds as they select World/Oly teams. These skaters who prove repeatedly that they can compete internationally want to try to peak at Worlds (or at least not burn out before then) and don't want an "off day" at Nationals to ruin their entire season. Everyone's entitled to an off day. This doesn't mean we NEED to factor in GP results, but I see no harm in considering them. I don't see how anyone could consider this "playing favorites".

    Now, if you've spoken to many of the middle-of-the-pack skaters who don't have much going on internationally, of course they want Nationals to mean everything since it's their only prayer of getting on a World team.

    Yeah. I'm still trying to wrap my brain around that one. I doubt there is an ideal mathematical formula that can pick World teams better than Nationals can, but when you have two skaters separated by .19, and one is scoring 20-30 pts higher internationally on a regular basis, isn't it somewhat obvious who should go? To me, it is, but I see that not everyone thinks so.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2011
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  9. Squibble

    Squibble New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2005
    Messages:
    1,520
    Yes. The one one who scored higher than the other at the high-pressure, do-or-die competition. :)

    Miner! :kickass:
     
  10. stjeaskategym

    stjeaskategym Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 18, 2002
    Messages:
    1,311
    High-pressure for Abbott, who was trying to 3-peat. Miner didn't even bring an exhibition costume because he didn't even consider placing top 4. :lol: Sure there was pressure for him, too, but it was just different.
     
  11. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,266
    The fact that a former GPF winner and two time National Champion was so overwhelmed by pressure that he couldn't even make the top 3 at a competition he should have easily won doesn't exactly instill confidence in his ability to deliver when it counts. :blah: Miner won his spot fair and square. Honestly, the 4CC's team didn't exactly blow the competition away and in my view, the performances of Rippon, Mahbanoozadeh, and Abbott confirm that the USFSA sent the right team to Worlds. Competitions are not about who is the best skater competing, but rather who competed the best that day. You can have all the potential in the world, but it doesn't matter if you can't put it together.
     
    Lanna and (deleted member) like this.
  12. reese

    reese Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2004
    Messages:
    3,403
    Abbott should have "easily won" Nationals this year? Huh? Over Rippon, Armin, Dornbush and Bradley?

    Nothing about the 4CC results confirms that USFS is sending the right team to Worlds. The fact that a totally mistake-filled LP from Abbott could still score about 30 points higher than Miner has EVER scored internationally, plus still beat Kozuka, says the opposite.

    I also don't understand this argument that Miner won his spot "fair and square." I guess that's true-- he didn't whack Abbott in the knee or anything-- but the PCS thrown at Miner would never hold up internationally. He was given, on average, PCS that were across the board about 2 points higher than he's scored internationally, while skaters like Abbott and Rippon got PCS that were almost identical to what they scored on the Grand Prix this fall. If there's going to be major Nationals inflation, Rippon should have been getting 9.50s-10s.
     
  13. carriecmu0503

    carriecmu0503 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    192
    Let us not forget that Lysacek was also the 2009 Nationals bronze medalist! He was lucky that only one upstart skater (Mroz) snuck ahead of him; had Weir skated like he normally does, Lysacek would not have made the 2009 World team, and we all know how 2009 Worlds ended for Lysacek.....

    Abbott's performance at Nationals this year really was not any worse than Lysaceck's at 2009- he just had the misfortune of having 2 newbiews, instead of one, sneak ahead of him.
     
    Last edited: Feb 23, 2011
  14. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    6,478
    This. If we were talking about Evan or Johnny, there would be a strong argument to bump the bronze medalist for people with a long track record of accomplishment. But so far, they've sent Abbot in as the "top" US man to Wolrds AND Olympics, and they've seen him, by and large, not hold it together when it counts. This time, he didn't even quite get there at Nationals. This is when they need to see who's going to be the 'up and comers', with enough time left to tweak things before they have to think about having those three Olympic spots. They have a reasonable pattern to look at where Abbot is concerned. So they can choose to send the winner of Nationals and two who may be long-term potential that need to get in front of the skating world and show what they have, or bump one of the long-term potentials for someone who's had several shots at it already and hasn't pulled out a medal at Worlds yet and even dropped far lower than they can really afford for a skater who isn't playing the "First Worlds, here for the experience" card.

    Also, not to sound all konpsiracy-theory, but isn't Ross still coached by Mark Mitchell? There may, not even overtly but in the back of USFS's minds, be that nagging memory of how it worked out for them when his coach got bumped in favor of a previous national champion.
     
  15. sk9tingfan

    sk9tingfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2006
    Messages:
    1,955
    And now the monkey will be on Ryan's, Ross's and Dornbush's backs to retain at least two if not three spots. Given that Ryan has never performed particularly well at Worlds, and I think may not wind up competing(why bother; just walk away and move onto a professional career since cementing his legacy), Jeremy may wind up going after all.
     
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  16. carriecmu0503

    carriecmu0503 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 25, 2007
    Messages:
    192
    NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I want Ryan to have his "Galindo" moment and medal at Worlds!
     
  17. museksk8r

    museksk8r Holding an edge and looking dangerously sexy

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2008
    Messages:
    3,297
    :confused::huh: I'm not sure how you can correctly come to that conclusion until AFTER you see Bradley, Dornbush, and Miner at Worlds, particularly since Ryan's only competition this season has been Nationals and since Richard and Ross have never competed at a senior world championship before.
     
    flutzilla1 and (deleted member) like this.
  18. peibeck

    peibeck Letting Poje be on top

    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2004
    Messages:
    17,039
    Well there are mathematical formulas for COP to pimp out one's program, and Jeremy has been dinged all season for his spin levels. He would be going to Worlds if he and his team had made sure he had increased those levels. Even at 4CC this past weekend he was getting level 1s on some of his spins. :wall:
     
    PeterG and (deleted member) like this.
  19. emason

    emason Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2004
    Messages:
    3,328
    I'm only a fan, in no teknik whatsoever, and I'm going to get flamed for my unpopular view, but I'm tired of this insistence on "picking the best world team possible." I think a trip to worlds should be the reward for a job well done at the skater's own nationals. If the US doesn't do so well at worlds as some fans would like, so be it. There are actually other countries and other skaters entered, and I wouldn't mind seeing some of them rise up and steal the moment.
     
  20. MacMadame

    MacMadame Cat Lady-in-Training

    Joined:
    Feb 3, 2005
    Messages:
    16,781
    Sorry to disappoint you but I talked to many skaters including some with good international results.
     
  21. OnyxRose81

    OnyxRose81 Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2004
    Messages:
    557
    I can't believe this discussion is still going on. Jeremy is one of my favorite skaters and initially I was gutted when he wasn't placed on the team but he didn't qualify. He has never done well at worlds or at the Olympics so I don't understand why they should skip over Miner and place Jeremy on the team, even if the points were so little between them. Jeremy is not reliable, like AT ALL. He has never even been in range of the podium at worlds. He had his chance, like everyone else. He shouldn't be held up. At this point in time, I doubt if he will ever get reliable or consistent, which is a shame because he is such a natural talent.
     
  22. triple_toe

    triple_toe Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2005
    Messages:
    1,266
    Err... yes?? :confused: Last year, Abbott beat the reigning World Champion, GPF Champion, and ultimate Olympic Gold Medallist. Johnny Weir had also recently been a world medallist and was the reigning GPF bronze medallist. Both Johnny and Evan had been having better seasons than Abbott up to this point. Actually, Nationals was the only time Jeremy was stronger than either of them.

    Rippon, Dornbush, Miner, and Mahbanoozadeh had never beaten Abbott in competition leading up to this past Nationals. Rippon and Mahbanoozadeh still have yet to do so. Correct me if I'm wrong, but Bradley was the only person competing at Nationals who had ever placed ahead of Abbott, and that was four years ago when he came 2nd at Nationals to Abbott's 4th. Bradley had been training for not more than a few months, and his long at Nationals wasn't all that great. Easily beatable for Jeremy.

    Compared to last year, this Nationals should have been a cakewalk. Jeremy, in spite of his boot problems, was having the best season of all the American men and was the overwhelming favourite.

    And as for 4CC's confirming that the right team was sent to worlds, I stand by that statement. 4CC's showed that none of the three sent there deserve any favours from the USFSA when it comes to spots for Worlds. I don't know how the Worlds team will do, and I'm not saying they'll do better than the 3 men at 4CC's did; all I'm saying is that the American men at 4CC's hardly performed so incredibly well that they might make the USFSA question whether one (or two, or three) of them should have been put on the Worlds team instead of Miner, Dorbush, or Bradley.
     
  23. jlai

    jlai Title-less

    Joined:
    Nov 21, 2002
    Messages:
    9,054
    If anything I thought Jeremy was slightly overmarked in the free skate. In fact, the current nationals skating order, with skaters ranked #4-6 in short program going before #1-3, is highly favorable for #1-3. It is esp favorable to whoever skates last (interesting it often turns out to be the sp winner) I could be wrong, but for the last 4 years where this skating order has been in effect, the short program winner for the senior singles that skated last tended to win the free, except when skater #2 or #3 posed a strong challenge (2008 senior men, 2010 senior ladies). Interesting that Mirai wasn't skating last this year and Rachael was.

    People are saying how some skaters aren't going to get the same pcs at internationals. Perhaps if nationals is held more like an ISU competiton--with judges from other countries and a skating order that isn't made for TV, we would have seen something that fans may find more "ISU-compatible". This year with so many strong free skates, I was a little puzzled over the spread of pcs over some skaters who gave the performance closest to their true potential. I think that weird skating order might have done sth to the result.

    Anyway, whatever that skating order should be, Jeremy isn't going to worlds.
     
    Last edited: Feb 24, 2011
  24. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,128
    I'm pretty sure Ryan will show up at Worlds. Why would he come back to skate at Nationals and have that be it? :confused:
     
  25. attyfan

    attyfan Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 20, 2003
    Messages:
    7,462
    If Scott Hamilton offered him a good sum to sign with SOI immediately, I suppose Ryan might have skipped Worlds. Since that didn't happen, however, I think Ryan will go to Worlds. Since he is Nat champ, I think he is jinxed, but Richard or Ross (or both) will be able to do well.
     
  26. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,128
    I don't think he would have skipped it. What would be the point of coming back just for Nationals? Isn't the main point of going to Nationals to qualify for Worlds?
     
  27. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    9,915
    I think Ryan's main points were:

    1. To satisfy his fans
    2. To win Nationals if possible

    I wonder if he even thought past that.
     
  28. Sylvia

    Sylvia On to GP & U.S. Sectionals!

    Joined:
    May 27, 2002
    Messages:
    31,964
    The Skating Club of Boston is hosting a Worlds Sendoff reception for Ross Miner at 7 pm on Friday, March 4. It seems to be for SCoB members but here's the club's Contact page if any fans in the area would like to inquire about the possibility of attending: http://www.scboston.org/about/contact-us
    Publicity flier: http://yfrog.com/f/gzahbgoj/
     
  29. blue_idealist

    blue_idealist Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2007
    Messages:
    2,128
    How could you not? All that effort to start training again and then just do one competition and leave? That would be crazy
     
  30. DORISPULASKI

    DORISPULASKI Watching submarine races

    Joined:
    Mar 27, 2002
    Messages:
    9,915
    It was only a month before US Nationals that his mother convinced him to really compete at Nationals rather than just appear and skate to vocals and do back flips & such. He was going to retire last year. Now he sees a future, but in December, I don't think he was thinking past Nationals. Having won, he's looking to Worlds and growing a "worlds" beard with Patrick Chan.