Is it physically possible to land a clean quadruple axel in competition?

Discussion in 'The Trash Can' started by Maofan7, Jan 31, 2013.

?

By which date will a clean 4A be successfully landed in competition?

Poll closed Mar 3, 2013.
  1. By 2015

    7 vote(s)
    10.6%
  2. By 2020

    17 vote(s)
    25.8%
  3. By 2030

    10 vote(s)
    15.2%
  4. By 2040

    2 vote(s)
    3.0%
  5. By 2050

    1 vote(s)
    1.5%
  6. Sometime beyond 2050

    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  7. Never - its not humanly possible

    29 vote(s)
    43.9%
  1. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    5,988
    Of course, anything is possible with the help of CGI, but is it physically possible to land a legitimate clean quadruple axel in competition? Or have we almost reached the limit of what is humanly possible in jump terms?

    In terms of the 6 types of jump, quad jumps have been accomplished in 3 of them in competition - the 4T (first - Kurt Browning: 1988 World Championships), the 4S (first - Timothy Goebel: 1998 JGPF), and the 4Z (first - Brandon Mroz: Colorado Springs Invitational 2011). Nobody, however, has yet landed a 4R, a 4F, or a 4A in competition. Daisuke Takahashi has attempted the 4F (e.g. 2010 Worlds FS, 2010/11 GPF LP), but they have either been deemed underrotated or downgraded. Konstantin Menshov has attempted a 4R in practice, whilst Kevin Reynolds recently attempted one in his SP at the 2012 BC Summerskate. Hence, its likely that the 4F and 4R will be successfully landed in competition at some point in the next 10 years. But what about a 4A? Is that a step too far, and does it take us beyond what is humanly possible?
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
    skateboy and (deleted member) like this.
  2. ehdtkqorl123

    ehdtkqorl123 New Member

    Joined:
    Feb 26, 2009
    Messages:
    403
    I don't think so. Just like there is no lady who does fully rotated 3A, there won't be a man who will be able to do fully rotated 4A.
     
  3. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    18,103
    Except for Midori Ito and Tonya Harding. :)

    I think someone will try to attempt it one day and I will be amazed when they do. But it is never going to be a mainstay of competiton like the quad has now become because you have to be a freak to be able to do it.
     
    Vash01 and (deleted member) like this.
  4. bardtoob

    bardtoob Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 25, 2005
    Messages:
    8,140
    Maybe if the skater is very tall, very thin, has a very deep step into the jump, and really goes for height rather than distance . . .

    . . . it would probably still be a 1/4 turn underrotated :shuffle:
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2013
  5. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    I don't think it will ever be done, no.
     
  6. orbitz

    orbitz Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Aug 10, 2004
    Messages:
    9,944
    Fast, straight rotations plus distance covered will negate the lack of height in the multiple revolutions jump. I think a 4A is possible with a heavy pre-rotation on the ice on the skid edge take-off.
     
  7. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,752
    I'm going to say 2020. :) I think the skate boot may need a bit more tweaking but I totally believe it's possible. I'm sure there was a time even DOUBLE jumps weren't considered possible, the skate boot itself evolved and look at us now! :)
     
  8. danceronice

    danceronice Corgi Wrangler

    Joined:
    Apr 10, 2006
    Messages:
    6,478
    Exactly. Go back to 1970 and ask if men would be doing a quad lutz. You'd get a LOT of "that's physically impossible."
     
  9. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,752
    And I am positive some men from earlier eras were at least trying quads in practices!

    Until I saw the practice video of 1960 Olympic Champ David Jenkins Triple Axel I had no idea that men were even attempting that jump prior to the '70's! Never mind in 1957! :rockstar::respec:. Correct me if I'm wrong anyone-but haven't skate boots advanced a great deal since David's time?

    To be sure-there are young men out there attempting quad axels in practices-here's Ryan Bradley's attempt -and here's another guy's (don't know his name) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1e7rg1hNQIw and the same guy in real time http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uG_uc4O3DVE one day...
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2013
  10. shine

    shine Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    May 31, 2002
    Messages:
    4,451
    What, by 2050 there'll be genetically engineered humans?
    Or a dominant mutation takes over the population?
     
  11. victoriaheidi

    victoriaheidi New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,784
    Not that I mind or anything, but where did all this quad axel talk come from lately?
     
  12. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    And it wasn't even caseyedwards that started the thread. :D
     
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  13. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,752
    Ask Maofan who started the thread. :D
     
    Maofan7 and (deleted member) like this.
  14. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    5,988
    Came across the CGI video (see post 1), and wondered whether we would ever see one for real one day, and whether it was even possible.
     
  15. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    26,521
    There was a time when people believed that the triple axel was an impossibility because it required 3 and a half rotations in the air.

    I don't see why someone could not land a quad axel some day in competition. It's a matter of when. I don't see it happening in 2015- that's just 2 years from now. However, 2020 is very possible. I am also guessing that in the next 7 years there will be improvements in boot designs which could help skaters trying this jump. However, I don't see anyone going for it for competitive advantage in a competition; it's more likely to get credit for 'first', like the quad lutz done by Brandon Mroz.
     
  16. Vash01

    Vash01 Fan of Julia, Elena, Anna, Liza, and Vera

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2001
    Messages:
    26,521
    You must be very young. Midori and Tonya fully rotated the 3As routinely, just like the men did.
     
  17. Maofan7

    Maofan7 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2011
    Messages:
    5,988
    If it is achieved, then it will be a bit like the 3A in Ladies, something that is deployed by a skater in competition only now and again with large gaps in between. That is, it will be a jump that only a very few skaters can do
     
  18. ks777

    ks777 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2003
    Messages:
    1,751
    No unless we see a male version of Midori Ito. Or Midori and Elvis decided to have a baby together. Or Midori have a baby with a Japanese gymnast Uchimura.
     
  19. chantilly

    chantilly Active Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2009
    Messages:
    557
    I believe Kurt once said that he thought it would happen eventually but that would be it,i.e that is as far as it would go.
     
  20. aims

    aims New Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2013
    Messages:
    18
    I like that:lol:, although, alas, Kohei is already married;)
     
  21. Sasha'sSpins

    Sasha'sSpins Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Jan 28, 2006
    Messages:
    3,752
    I think it's an excellent poll and I'm having fun with it.

    The axel happens to be my favorite jump and I'm so happy I got to see Midori Ito nail the first one by ladies and Tonya Harding the first for American women. I hope to live long enough to see the day when the quad axel is nailed in an ISU sanctioned competition-and it will I'm sure of it! I might not live long enough to see a lady do it I grant-but you never know! :D

    Thank you. These kids! They really should study the history of figure skating! :lol:
     
  22. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    18,103
    Mmmm interesting scenarios. :)
     
  23. briancoogaert

    briancoogaert Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2003
    Messages:
    12,505
    Kurt Browning had a big triple Axel. Does anyone know if he attempted 4Axel at the practices ?
    Same with Petrenko or Kulik.
     
  24. black

    black New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    If gravity remains the same, (objects falling with the same acceleration) then look to the rotation.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angular_momentum

    It even uses a figure skater as an example.

    Thus if you want a greater angular momentum (faster rotation) you need to bring more mass, more distance to the centre of axis.

    Assuming you don't have your arms lengthened, the solution would be to have weights (very securely) fastened to your wrists/hands.

    Practice this on a spinning office chair (preferably not with castors & slowly!!) bring your arms in, once empty, second with a water bottle in each hand, notice the difference?

    With more mass the rotation will be faster = more rotation for the same height jump.

    As Casey Carlyle would say, "Physics".

    The drawbacks would be controlling the increased acceleration. (And it will probably be banned by the ISU, if not already)
     
  25. aka_gerbil

    aka_gerbil Rooting for the Underdogs

    Joined:
    Jan 25, 2008
    Messages:
    1,589
    FWIW, the 4A is actually in the code of points. Since they put it in and assigned a value to it, I'm thinking that it would not be banned by the ISU. I would think that using weights attached to you hands to achieve the 4A would be frowned upon though.
     
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2013
  26. aliceanne

    aliceanne Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 12, 2010
    Messages:
    2,296
    It's been dicussed in other threads. The consensus among skaters and coaches (Stojko, Mishin) is that someone would have to develop a lighter skate with enough support.
     
  27. Ziggy

    Ziggy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Oct 7, 2002
    Messages:
    20,569
    We have those black lighter blades now (forgot what they are called) but I know a competitive skater for whom they broke mid-season. :p
     
  28. Aussie Willy

    Aussie Willy Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2005
    Messages:
    18,103
    4 Axel has a base value of 15 points and for an underrotated jump a base value of 10.5. Downgraded will go back to a 8.5 (value of 3A).
     
  29. judgejudy27

    judgejudy27 Well-Known Member

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2006
    Messages:
    13,575
    I think Midori Ito definitely could have done it. Not sure if there are any men who could have, maybe Brian Boitano, Kurt Browning, Alexei Yagudin, or a younger Evgeny Plushenko.
     
  30. black

    black New Member

    Joined:
    May 11, 2012
    Messages:
    2
    No offence/offense intended by this post.

    Do you think there is still a degree of racism in figure skating that puts off some great athletes? (who might be able to land a 4A)