Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 24
  1. #1

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    City of Blinding Light
    Posts
    15,904
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    12302

    Gov't Targets For-Profit Colleges; Corinthian Colleges May Shut Down

    The federal and state government are (finally) really going after the for-profit college industry.

    Corinthian Colleges in the US, which owns Everest, Wyotech, Heald and a few other schools, may shut down this week if they can't find funding. Last week, the government held its ability to access federal financial aid due to issues the school did not resolve. The Department of Education said that Corinthian refused to address issues with its marketing practices, as well as falsification of job placement data. In fact, they said the school refused to even respond when the DoE contacted them about these issues.

    The Obama administration's move to restrict Corinthian's funding, made last week but not disclosed until Thursday, signals a newly aggressive approach to policing the for-profit education industry. The Department of Education has proposed eliminating federal funding for for-profit schools with high proportions of graduates who default on their student loans or whose debt levels are high relative to their incomes. The Consumer Financial Protection Bureau, meanwhile, is investigating whether the schools coax students into taking out high-cost loans.

    Several states also have been looking into the industry. In January, state attorneys general sent subpoenas to Corinthian, as well as Career Education Corp. CECO -9.18% , Education Management Corp. EDMC -4.21% and ITT Educational Services Inc., ESI -6.06% demanding documents from the four companies about financing and recruitment practices.
    CEC owns Sanford Brown, the Le Cordon Bleu schools, and Colorado Technical University, amongst others.

    EMC owns the Art Institute chain of schools, Brown Mackie, Argosy U, and South U.

    ITT Tech, I believe, only uses its own name on its schools.

    http://online.wsj.com/articles/corin...aid-1403185543

    What do you guys think of the for-profit schools?
    Use Yah Blinkah!

  2. #2

    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Posts
    3,163
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    4024
    I think these school need more regulation. The commercials make it seem like jobs would be readily available after graduation, giving false hope to many.

  3. #3
    Official FSU Alte Kacher
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Looking through my D7100 viewfinder
    Posts
    12,061
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    20069
    They're a scam. For-profit schools exist to get money from gov't. Students take out the loans, the schools get the money, students are left holding air....and loan payments.
    "Nothing in all the world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity”– MLK

  4. #4

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    5,317
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    9947
    It's about time. Too late for all the people who've been scammed.

  5. #5
    Bountifully Enmeshed
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    At the Christmas Bizarre
    Posts
    38,153
    vCash
    250
    Rep Power
    46687
    There are for-profits and for-profits, just like everything else. Some of them are scams and some of them aren't.

    Lots of students who graduate from non-profits also end up with air and loan payments, too. There are no guarantees.

    I think for-profits need to be reined in, but there is a niche need for them that places like community colleges does not fill.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  6. #6
    Internet Beyotch
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    15,804
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    23556
    I think the schools mentioned above are pretty much scams. The local ones I'm familiar with don't really offer anything that you can't get at the community colleges for much cheaper.

    There are slightly more prestigious for-profit schools that don't seem quite so scam-ish yet when I talk to people who work there, it turns out they are pretty questionable too. There was a big scandal in the photography industry about Brooks down in SoCal a few years back, for example.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  7. #7
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Rejecting your reality and substituting my own
    Age
    30
    Posts
    11,003
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    There are for-profits and for-profits, just like everything else. Some of them are scams and some of them aren't.

    Lots of students who graduate from non-profits also end up with air and loan payments, too. There are no guarantees.

    I think for-profits need to be reined in, but there is a niche need for them that places like community colleges does not fill.
    I think the danger is when you don't know which ones are good, or when you haven't mentally prepared yourself for attending one.

    I know someone who attended an Academy of Art campus, after getting his bachelor's at a small supportive private uni. He got a lot out of AA, but the administration was beyond useless and didn't care about the students. All they cared about was getting the students' money or loans. At least the teachers were good, but a lot of students failed out (which is typical of for-profits) because there's no support system for them, and they basically take anybody.

    My friend succeeded because he knew what he was getting into. Most students don't.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,961
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    6943
    They have a demonstrated pattern of lying about job prospects and future salaries, lying about transferability of credits, and admitting students who are totally unqualified to pursue certain programs, including admitting students to a pharmacy tech program who could not read at more than an elementary level, and admitting students with felony convictions for assault and similar crimes to nurse's aide programs. They have even offered programs that don't actually qualify the students to gain the state certification needed to be employed in that field. They are a plague on the poor, and it is a shame that the government didn't crack down on them years and years ago.

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Vancouver Canada
    Age
    55
    Posts
    12,703
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    11163
    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    They have a demonstrated pattern of lying about job prospects and future salaries, lying about transferability of credits, and admitting students who are totally unqualified to pursue certain programs, including admitting students to a pharmacy tech program who could not read at more than an elementary level, and admitting students with felony convictions for assault and similar crimes to nurse's aide programs. They have even offered programs that don't actually qualify the students to gain the state certification needed to be employed in that field. They are a plague on the poor, and it is a shame that the government didn't crack down on them years and years ago.
    In that case there not be serious inequities because the graduates of for-profit and regular institutions? In which case, employers would be aware of it? Why then would anyone go to these schools?

    There may be such schools in Canada, but I'm not aware of any. In my view the very concept of a 'for profit' school is bizarre.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    5,317
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    9947
    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    In that case there not be serious inequities because the graduates of for-profit and regular institutions? In which case, employers would be aware of it? Why then would anyone go to these schools?
    Yes, there are serious inequities. The students that end up at these schools are often not from educated families and don't know the difference between a for-profit and non-profit. They know it's a college, and a private one, so they infer that the colleges must be better than their local public community colleges. They're drawn in by the fancy advertising, and when they visit the campus or ask for more information, the colleges put on a hard sell and promise the world to them.

  11. #11
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Rejecting your reality and substituting my own
    Age
    30
    Posts
    11,003
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    They have a demonstrated pattern of lying about job prospects and future salaries, lying about transferability of credits, and admitting students who are totally unqualified to pursue certain programs, including admitting students to a pharmacy tech program who could not read at more than an elementary level, and admitting students with felony convictions for assault and similar crimes to nurse's aide programs. They have even offered programs that don't actually qualify the students to gain the state certification needed to be employed in that field. They are a plague on the poor, and it is a shame that the government didn't crack down on them years and years ago.
    I think that's the real danger, along with lying in their marketing. They can and do take anyone, and they don't give a shite about you once you're in, as long as you pay them.

  12. #12
    Bountifully Enmeshed
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    At the Christmas Bizarre
    Posts
    38,153
    vCash
    250
    Rep Power
    46687
    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    There may be such schools in Canada, but I'm not aware of any. In my view the very concept of a 'for profit' school is bizarre.
    Google and Wiki are your friends: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Categor...eges_in_Canada

    Quote Originally Posted by Gazpacho View Post
    The students that end up at these schools are often not from educated families and don't know the difference between a for-profit and non-profit. They know it's a college, and a private one, so they infer that the colleges must be better than their local public community colleges. They're drawn in by the fancy advertising, and when they visit the campus or ask for more information, the colleges put on a hard sell and promise the world to them.
    While all of that is true, another common scenario is that students start out at community colleges and go to for-profits instead. There are generally two reasons for this:

    1. Time: the community colleges often require the students to take remedial courses and to take gen eds that the for-profits do not. It takes longer to get through school and get a credential, and thus longer to get a job, which is the goal.

    2. Being lost in the shuffle: many community colleges are big, with large students bodies and a lot of bureaucracy. It's easy for students to fall through the cracks, especially students who are the first in their families to go to college and have no one to help them through the process. It's the community colleges where the students feel that

    Quote Originally Posted by Anita18 View Post
    They can and do take anyone, and they don't give a shite about you once you're in, as long as you pay them.
    For-profits very often hold students' hands to a degree that isn't possible at community colleges--they tend to stay right on top of the students to keep them going to school.

    And again, there are for-profits that are not scams, that do produce students who get jobs and do well. Some of them have better success rates than do community colleges, most of which have pretty dismal rates themselves. Many for-profits are trade schools and did fine when that was their role; the expansion of federal financial aid programs made some of them greedy and they expanded in order to take advantage, and that was their downfall (ITT is usually seen as a prime example of this). But there is a need for something besides community college to train people for basic skilled work; one reason the government hasn't done more to crack down on these school is that their own reports, scathing as they may be, always note that we need something out there besides community college for students. Contrary to popular opinion, not everyone can do community college; many , many students flunk out or drop out, and then where do they go? Bad for-profits need to be closed down, but then what?
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    City of Blinding Light
    Posts
    15,904
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    12302
    The School of Visual Arts, in NYC, is actually a for-profit. It's also one of the top 10 art schools in the US. And I've worked at some reputable for-profits who saw their mission as helping students who otherwise might have drowned at a community college, get through school. So not all are bad. It's just that the bad ones paint their whole industry as bad.

    I am thus especially glad that the Ai chain of schools is under scrutiny. To me, that entire chain is just out there to rip off students. And it's such a shame, because the original Ai, the Ai of Pittsburgh, used to be a decent commercial art school.
    Use Yah Blinkah!

  14. #14

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    5,961
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    6943
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post

    And again, there are for-profits that are not scams, that do produce students who get jobs and do well. Some of them have better success rates than do community colleges, most of which have pretty dismal rates themselves. Many for-profits are trade schools and did fine when that was their role; the expansion of federal financial aid programs made some of them greedy and they expanded in order to take advantage, and that was their downfall (ITT is usually seen as a prime example of this). But there is a need for something besides community college to train people for basic skilled work; one reason the government hasn't done more to crack down on these school is that their own reports, scathing as they may be, always note that we need something out there besides community college for students. Contrary to popular opinion, not everyone can do community college; many , many students flunk out or drop out, and then where do they go? Bad for-profits need to be closed down, but then what?
    Public vocational programs.

  15. #15
    Bountifully Enmeshed
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    At the Christmas Bizarre
    Posts
    38,153
    vCash
    250
    Rep Power
    46687
    Quote Originally Posted by barbk View Post
    Public vocational programs.
    I don't know about where you live, but where I live, the only public vocational programs are offered by....community colleges. Which perform that function because it is more fiscally efficient than having separate programs and is thus not likely to change.

    And the issues with community colleges are also not likely to change.

    Quote Originally Posted by GarrAarghHrumph View Post
    I am thus especially glad that the Ai chain of schools is under scrutiny. To me, that entire chain is just out there to rip off students. And it's such a shame, because the original Ai, the Ai of Pittsburgh, used to be a decent commercial art school.
    I just read a fairly long article about how so many of these schools went wrong in the 90s. It's one thing to want to make a profit; it's another thing to be so intent on making a profit that you completely lose sight of the fact that you have to actually DO something for the money or the entity paying the bills gets rather pissed off.

    However, all of this scrutiny has bled right over to community colleges and spread upwards from there. Just wait to see what happens if President Obama gets the college ranking system he wants. Wheeeee.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  16. #16
    Internet Beyotch
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    15,804
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    23556
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Bad for-profits need to be closed down, but then what?
    If the bad schools close down, there is more money available for the good for-profits who maybe won't get drowned out in the noise these scam schools are making. Or maybe some new schools that are not scams can find a toe-hold in the marketplace and fill the vacuum left by these bad schools. But that can't happen if the bad schools are left to operate because "hey, we need *some* alternative to community colleges"
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  17. #17
    Bountifully Enmeshed
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    At the Christmas Bizarre
    Posts
    38,153
    vCash
    250
    Rep Power
    46687
    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    If the bad schools close down, there is more money available
    Actually, there isn't. That's a whole lot of what this is all about--less money. And not just for for-profit schools.

    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    But that can't happen if the bad schools are left to operate because "hey, we need *some* alternative to community colleges"
    I believe the government's philosophy on this to date has been "Hey, we need *some* alternative to community colleges so we are going to give these schools time to clean up their acts because there really isn't anything else out there." And such schools have had quite a bit of time to get their acts together because there really isn't anything else out there and because closing the schools creates other problems. At this point, the schools either haven't done enough to improve or the government is being unreasonable, depending on whose point of view you listen to. But closing these schools won't free up cash. The point here is for the government to cut back on education spending.

    Meanwhile, shutting down the bad schools will save future students from entanglement, but what should be done with current students?

    There is no precedent for the shuttering of a for-profit chain that enrolls 72,000 students across 107 campuses. But it is possible -- or maybe even likely -- that Corinthian Colleges will go bankrupt in coming weeks.

    “The Education Department and the accreditors do not appear to have contemplated a scenario in which tens of thousands of students are simultaneously displaced,” according to The Capital Forum, a Beltway-based newsletter founded by Teddy Downey, executive editor of a subscription news and analysis company, who tracks the for-profit industry. “Such lack of planning has likely created the possibility for a chaotic situation to arise.”

    For-profits aren't the only schools in trouble. City College of San Francisco, a community college, is one example of a nonprofit in the government's crosshairs.

    And you can expect to see more of this. As with anything else, there are pros and cons. Bad schools need to improve or close; closing the schools reduces option for students and creates havoc for those currently enrolled.

    ETA: Corinthian and the Department of Ed reached an agreement today.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  18. #18
    Internet Beyotch
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    NorCal
    Posts
    15,804
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    23556
    Quote Originally Posted by Prancer View Post
    Actually, there isn't. That's a whole lot of what this is all about--less money. And not just for for-profit schools.
    But if there's less money available, it's going not be available even if these schools stay open. I prefer to have them close, as orderly as possible, because it keeps unsuspecting people out of them. I think no alternative is better than a bad alternative for most of these students.
    Actual bumper sticker series: Jesus is my co-pilot. Satan is my financial advisor. Budha is my therapist. L. Ron Hubbard owes me $50.

  19. #19
    Bountifully Enmeshed
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    At the Christmas Bizarre
    Posts
    38,153
    vCash
    250
    Rep Power
    46687
    Quote Originally Posted by MacMadame View Post
    But if there's less money available, it's going not be available even if these schools stay open. I prefer to have them close, as orderly as possible, because it keeps unsuspecting people out of them. I think no alternative is better than a bad alternative for most of these students.
    I think the government has the right of it in trying to get the bad schools to become better schools. Students who attend for-profits are commuters (or online students, which brings up different issues); if you close down a school in Montana because it's a bad school, there isn't an alternative around the corner and very few of the students are able to move to go to school, even if they are willing. And as I pointed out, there are issues for students who do have the alternative of a local community college (although the government is also pushing CCs pretty hard to develop programs that keep close tabs on struggling students, similar to what a lot of for-profits do).

    I'm not a fan of better-than-nothing, but I don't think nothing is the right answer, either.
    "The secret to creativity is knowing how to hide your sources."-- Albert Einstein.

  20. #20

    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    City of Blinding Light
    Posts
    15,904
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    12302
    It looks like Corinthian has struck some sort of deal with the government. However, they will have to either shut down ("teach out") some campuses, or sell them:
    http://www.latimes.com/business/la-f...ry.html#page=1

    As part of Monday's agreement, the Education Department will give Corinthian — one of the nation's largest college corporations — access to $16 million in previously restricted federal loan and grant money.

    In a press release, the company described the agreement as one that will "best protect the interests of students, faculty and staff, ensure the integrity of federal student aid funds and preserve the value of the schools."

    Corinthian and the Education Department agreed to approve a plan for the company's future by July 1. After that, the company will be subject to stringent review by a federally approved independent monitor, who can access all the company's internal financial documents.
    So that basically means that the schools don't need to shut their doors immediately.


    Several analysts who follow Corinthian viewed Monday's agreement as a precursor to bankruptcy, giving the company time to sell off some assets to generate cash. The grace period also prevents a shutdown that would have left students in the lurch.

    But it's unclear what the market will be for Corinthian's schools. Many analysts pointed to the company's ongoing legal entanglements with state attorneys general and the U.S. Consumer Financial Protection Bureau. They argued that any sale would need provisions to protect buyers from liability.
    I agree with the article - they'll sell off WyoTech, as that school actually has a decent rep in its industry. I am not familiar with Heald, which the article mentions. But other than those two, I expect their other colleges to close.
    Use Yah Blinkah!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •