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  1. #1
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    Competition Schedule and Grouping

    Is there a set protocol for scheduling a competition and order. As well is there set guidelines for how groups are separated?

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    In what country? If US, USFS has a PDF document about hosting non qual competitions. I'm sure ISI does too. There are rules about warm up lengths, time between warm ups, what levels can share the ice, max number of skaters on ice.

    There are not rules like "seniors must skate mid day"

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    In most US non-qualifying competitions, groups are split by level and then usually (but not always) by age. Basic Skills competitions generally allow no more than four skaters per group and then are split by age. If there is a wide age gap between skaters in the same level - Basic 1 has two skaters age 4 and age 8, for example, they may be split into two events with only one skater in each - or not. Generally those things are left up to the referee to decide. The referee (not the club) also sets the schedule, based on numbers of skaters, number of events and the levels of available judges. Which is why calling the club BEFORE the entry deadline to ask what day and time your skater will compete is a waste of time.
    I'd rather be thought of as absolutely ridiculous than as absolutely boring.

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    What zaphyre said. All those decisions belong to the referee in the end.

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    I thought it seemed in the past pre juv and under they were grouped by age. But it looked like to me at a recent competition the IJS kids were grouped by score. Some groups had really low scores and were comparable and the other group all very high and comparable. So I was just curious.

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    You're talking about their scores at this competition? You think whoever split the groups predicted which skaters would earn high scores and which would earn low scores and divided them accordingly, and then they lived up to that prediction?

    There are two possible explanations that don't require that kind of prejudging:

    1) The groups were split by age. The younger skaters at these levels tend to be more talented and therefore earned higher scores; the older ones were more average or below-average for this test level and therefore earned lower scores.

    2) The groups were split randomly and the quality of skating was comparable across both groups. However, it just so happened that the technical panel on one group was much stricter about awarding levels and calling jump errors, and the other panel was more lenient, and/or the judges on the first panel were more generous with GOEs and PCS, and the judges on the second panel tended to score more harshly across the board.

    That's why there are always cautions that you can't compare scores directly from one event to another -- even two groups of the same level at the same competition, if the panels of officials are not the same for both groups.
    Last edited by gkelly; 06-18-2014 at 03:11 PM.

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    Yeah, they weren't grouped by score potential. In many cases, the referee isn't local and won't even know who the skaters are when the schedule is made.

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    Thank you all for the responses! I will share these findings with the other moms who were inquiring as well!

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    Good question, babbyrabbit - thanks to zaphyre for explaining and to gkelly for her logical post.

    There IS a documented procedure for seeding and group division at U.S. qualifying competitions -- see Rule 2460 and following (starting on page 112 of the USFS 2013-14 rule book): http://www.usfsa.org/content/2013-14...2010-31-13.pdf
    "Randy [Starkman (1960-April 16, 2012)] lived by the same motto as the rest of us. The Olympics isn’t every four years, it’s every single day. He just got it." --Canadian Olympic kayaker Adam van Koeverden

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    Even though I shouldn't be, I am sometimes surprised by some of the things parents look at when it comes to results and then they make assumptions based on them. I have constantly had to clarify these sorts of things at our rink.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    I've read about competitions that split based on axel vs no axel, so that may have happened as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlerain View Post
    I've read about competitions that split based on axel vs no axel, so that may have happened as well?
    We get parents complain how unfair it is that their little darlings who don't have an axel have to compete against kids who do at certain levels. If they have done the test and passed, then that is what division they compete in, regardless of what elements they can do.

    Whatever way you split up divisions, create groups, age of skaters, etc the one thing I have learnt over the years that no matter what you do someone is going to complain. We get it with everyone from skaters to parents to the adults. You just have to nod your head politely but then do what you have to do. Life aint' fair baby.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

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    One more point: generally the referee only get the number of skaters in each level: 52 Pre-Pre, 38Pre Juv, 27 Juv, 22 Int, etc. So he/she has no clue who the skaters are or what their previous scores might have been. The only person who would know the names at the time of the groupings would be the accountant who builds the events for the computer. And believe, me, with all the paperwork that the accountants do to set up for a competition, the last thing they're thinking about is the scoring potentials of the skaters!

    Oh, and one more thing: except in competitions where the starting order is determined by an Open Draw (the referee gathers the skaters to pull a numbered chip out of a bag), the starting orders are determined by the accountant who simply clicks a button in the program labelled RANDOM and the program shuffles the skaters around. No human conspiracies involved. So if Suzy ended up skating first three times in a row, well, they don't call it the luck of the draw for nothing.
    Last edited by zaphyre14; 06-19-2014 at 02:10 PM.
    I'd rather be thought of as absolutely ridiculous than as absolutely boring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by littlerain View Post
    I've read about competitions that split based on axel vs no axel, so that may have happened as well?
    That is usually based on the event you enter though; not a grouping within the event. (Because the referee/accountant aren't going to know who has an axel.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skittl1321 View Post
    That is usually based on the event you enter though; not a grouping within the event. (Because the referee/accountant aren't going to know who has an axel.)
    I'd say that depends on the event. Last year's adult silver category at the Cranberry Open had two levels for Adult Silver -axel and no axel, presumably based on whether or not the competitors wanted to try one in their program or not.

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    Yes, but they registered for separate events -- either Silver w/ Axel or Silver No Axel. They didn't all register for the same Silver event and let the referee/accountant split it by guessing which ones were going to try axels.

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    Quote Originally Posted by gkelly View Post
    Yes, but they registered for separate events -- either Silver w/ Axel or Silver No Axel. They didn't all register for the same Silver event and let the referee/accountant split it by guessing which ones were going to try axels.
    Yep, that is what I was trying to say.

  18. #18

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    You could go by the PPC to determine who is going to do an axel in the program.
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  19. #19

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    The US doesn't use IJS at prepreliminary, preliminary, or adult silver levels, so there would be no planned program content sheets for the levels that might offer with- and without-axel events.

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    Even if they did- I really doubt the accountant would want to bother with that when there is that nice 'random' button available.

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