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  1. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    Mao could win the next 4 Worlds and the next Olympics and she would still never be in the league of Yu Na, or even probably Michelle Kwan for that matter. It was long ago determined she is not even the best skater of her own era since when she and her main rival are both around she almost never wins. She wins her titles when Yu Na is either not there or messes up badly. Unlike Yu Na and even Michelle who dominated their eras, Mao vultures the remains when the real big star(s) is not around to beat her. She cant even beat Miki Ando or Carolina Kostner when they are healthy and in top form. She will never the best ever, even if she won the next 10 World and Olympic events she would never be considered this.

    One thing that sets her so far below Yu Na or Michelle is consistency. Michelle finished top 3 at every event for about 9 years. Yu Na has never not medalled in any skating competition her whole career. Mao is like a yo yo, gold, 6th, 7th, bronze, silver, 6th, 8th, gold. Even when she wins it is practically always with mistakes and she is just lucky her biggest competition made even more mistakes in those cases (or sometimes werent even there). None of her 3 world titles were won with a flawless performance, unlike Yu Na and Michelle who won practically all their big titles and even lost some with flawless outings. You can talk about Mao's beautiful artistry, her great spins and spirals, her huge jumps, but it doesnt matter when she always messes up which she does even in victory.

    Mao blew 3 chances of the Olympic gold. She could be Sonja Henie today rather than the one who couldnt get the OGM even once despite so many chances. 2006 she couldnt skate but she would have choked and made mistakes to lose the gold if she had. 2010 she messed up to lose the gold and again in 2014. Kwan only blew 1 chance of olympic gold- 2002, and Kim never did. Both lost one additional OGM despite skating great OGM worthy performances through others performances (and in 2010 the super bad judging as well), but between them they blew the OGM only once, vs the 3 times Mao already has.
    Mao never had a chance against Yuna in 2010 in Vancouver regardless if she was clean or not. Yuna was on a different level then any other skater at the time.

  2. #42
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    For sure she won't come back, or at least she will only come back for a season if JFS asks her a favor. There would be no way she could become the next Olympic gold medal at the age of 27, with all the new edge calls rule. That would be her disadvantage. Not everyone is Kostner. Not to mention that, the field in Italia is not as deep as in Japan at the moment.

  3. #43
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Mao never had a chance against Yuna in 2010 in Vancouver regardless if she was clean or not. Yuna was on a different level then any other skater at the time.
    Ofcourse, despite more difficult jumps, better spins/spirals and steps it wasn't enough thanks to the magical formula of goe and pcs, we recently got the pleasure to rediscover what kind of miracle this combination can make, what a privilege it is to be in the judges favor.
    keep this in mind, the best score does not always mean the best skate or best skater but rather the most favoured/chosen one. Anyone, any chosen skater with decent skills can suddenly become invincible once the judges want them to.

  4. #44
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amy03 View Post
    Ofcourse, despite more difficult jumps, better spins/spirals and steps it wasn't enough thanks to the magical formula of goe and pcs, we recently got the pleasure to rediscover what kind of miracle this combination can make, what a privilege it is to be in the judges favor.
    keep this in mind, the best score does not always mean the best skate or best skater but rather the most favoured/chosen one. Anyone, any chosen skater with decent skills can suddenly become invincible once the judges want them to.
    I'm a huge Plushenko fan, but talk about favorable judging! He was horrible in Vancouver and he still made it close; just 1.5 points behind Lysacek! If he had added another double axel he still could have won! I lost respect for the system before they went to this new scoring charade! I thought we were supposed to get away from shady circumstances like this, but it still persists! HOW?

  5. #45

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amy03 View Post
    Ofcourse, despite more difficult jumps, better spins/spirals and steps it wasn't enough thanks to the magical formula of goe and pcs, we recently got the pleasure to rediscover what kind of miracle this combination can make, what a privilege it is to be in the judges favor.
    keep this in mind, the best score does not always mean the best skate or best skater but rather the most favoured/chosen one. Anyone, any chosen skater with decent skills can suddenly become invincible once the judges want them to.
    well, it's true if no one but the judges accept the champion, but it's not true if everyone including the judges praise them (well, please minus the antis, lol)

    Adelina in Sochi is the expamle for 1 and Yuna in Vancouver is the example for 2
    Last edited by HVS; 05-17-2014 at 06:12 AM.

  6. #46
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amy03 View Post
    Ofcourse, despite more difficult jumps, better spins/spirals and steps it wasn't enough thanks to the magical formula of goe and pcs, we recently got the pleasure to rediscover what kind of miracle this combination can make, what a privilege it is to be in the judges favor.
    keep this in mind, the best score does not always mean the best skate or best skater but rather the most favoured/chosen one. Anyone, any chosen skater with decent skills can suddenly become invincible once the judges want them to.
    With the exception of the 3axel what more difficult jumps did Mao have over Kim? Mao didn't even have a 3-3 combo and couldn't do a 3lutz3toe like Yuna was doing. Yuna was the superior jumper with much more speed and flow.

  7. #47
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    Mao could already be considered the best ever. Best ever is always about impact and skating quality over titles. If it were only titles these would be the best ever:

    Women- Henie, Witt, and Szabo Plack
    Men- Grafstrom, Salchow, Schafer
    Pairs- Rodnina & Zaitsev
    Dance- Gritschuk & Platov, Klimova & Ponomarenko, Bestiamanova & Bukin, Pakhamova & Gorschkov

    Yet who considers these the best ever. Almost nobody. With people like Button, Yagudin, Curry, Cousins, Plushenko, Kwan, Kim, Lynn, Ito, Asada, Gordeeva & Grinkov, Protoppopovs, Miskutienok & Dmitriev, Virtue & Moir, Davis & White, Torvill & Dean the picks of most people instead.

    There is argument that could be made to put Asada over both Kim and Kwan. She certainly has many aspects of her skating over both. She is more of a risk taker than either as far as jumps, light years more than Kwan, and more than Kim as well. She has much better spins than either. She has better quality jumps than Kwan, overall less than Kim who has incredible toe jumps but she does all the jumps well and with good quality unlike Kim. She has way better spirals than Kim. She has better positions and back than Kim, and more excitement and versatility in her skating than Kwan.

    If all three skated their best in a competition Mao would probably win. She isnt as consistent as either but she is a better skater. Even Yu Na admits Mao is better than her when she is on, but she is able to capatilize on Maos inconsistency to win some competiions.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    With the exception of the 3axel what more difficult jumps did Mao have over Kim? Mao didn't even have a 3-3 combo and couldn't do a 3lutz3toe like Yuna was doing. Yuna was the superior jumper with much more speed and flow.
    In 2010 Yu Na was probably better than Mao even if Mao went clean since Mao had let her jumps and overall skating slide with Tarasova, and Kim was at her all time peak. However most other years if both did their best Kim would lose. 2010 and maybe 2009 are the only years that were an exception.

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    With the exception of the 3axel what more difficult jumps did Mao have over Kim? Mao didn't even have a 3-3 combo and couldn't do a 3lutz3toe like Yuna was doing. Yuna was the superior jumper with much more speed and flow.
    A well executed 3A is worth the same as a 3-3, it's just a much more rare and difficult jump and way to to earn the same amount of points, and Mao delivered nothing short then THREE of them add the far superior spins/ spirals and steps.
    If you seriously think that landing on 3-3 in the sp and fs is more difficult then landing three 3A's you can just go and count the number of times in the whole history of this sport a female has landed 3 3A in the same competition let alone one of them, and then compare it to the number of times female skaters have landed two 3-3 in a competition, Mao received a Guinness world record for a reason.
    Go ask every skater currently competing and retired what they would find easier to attempt, and you will be astonished seeing in how much agreement the skaters answers will be, and if that's not enough you can just look at the number of times a 3lz-3t is landed by a dosin different skaters during the season and compare it the number of times a 3A is landed, and there you have the answer again.

  10. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fiero425 View Post
    I'm a huge Plushenko fan, but talk about favorable judging! He was horrible in Vancouver and he still made it close; just 1.5 points behind Lysacek! If he had added another double axel he still could have won! I lost respect for the system before they went to this new scoring charade! I thought we were supposed to get away from shady circumstances like this, but it still persists! HOW?
    Because the system gives them the opportunity to do what they want and ignore the guidlines, and by the end of the day they can go home anonymous without giving any explanation. There is too much subjectivity in the scoring especially when it comes to pcs,atleast the judges should be held accountable for their biased marks, if the marks they gave were fair and just they wouldn't need to be anonymous. but I believe sometimes things have to get really bad (like it did in Vancouver and Sochi), before things get better and changes are made, I atleast hope so.
    Last edited by Amy03; 05-18-2014 at 08:08 PM.

  11. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    Mao could already be considered the best ever. Best ever is always about impact and skating quality over titles. .

    There is argument that could be made to put Asada over both Kim and Kwan.
    Some of Mao's fans still live in fantasy world here where not just they believe, they also think the world believe with them Mao above Yuna, lol.

    You must be confused between one of the best ever and the best ever, right? Mao is one of the best, yes. But no one except her fans consider her as the best. Show me what argument put her above Yuna and Kwan? That's your opinion which is not shared by any outside your fandom. Ask that question on online communites like facebook, youtube, tumblr, twitter, yahoo then see what is the answer? You must be surprised

  12. #52
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    I am not a Mao fan, but I think it is silly to say nobody would consider Mao above Kim or Kwan. Are you saying there is no debate who is the best skater of the Kim-Asada era and everyone says it is Kim. Of course not. Maybe a Kimbot thinks that, but not reality.

  13. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by itoaxel View Post
    I am not a Mao fan, but I think it is silly to say nobody would consider Mao above Kim or Kwan. Are you saying there is no debate who is the best skater of the Kim-Asada era and everyone says it is Kim. Of course not. Maybe a Kimbot thinks that, but not reality.
    Talk about put words in one's mouth here Did I say Yuna is the best ever? No, I didn't. I said Mao is not the best ever!

    Actually, I personally believe no one is the best ever, one of the best, yes.

    On the other hand, who has more fans to support their legacy more than others is another story, lol

    Are you saying there is no debate who is the best skater of the Kim-Asada era
    But since you really ask, then yes, show me what to prove Mao is better than Yuna in their era? Don't just talk about "quality" here because that's so subjectively. They are athletes, competitors after all.

    While many fans consider Mao even not at the same level as Yuna since 2009, I actually believe that she is still Yuna's greatest rival, that's my respect for her.
    Last edited by HVS; 05-19-2014 at 11:43 AM.

  14. #54
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    It is personal opinion to who is greater between Yu Na and Mao. It isnt clear cut either way, both have various edges over the other both in skating and their careers and impact on the sport. I am a Yu Na fanatic and much prefer her to Mao, but Mao is without a doubt one of the top 5 female skaters of all time and worthy of the highest respect as well. You could reasonably argue either one as the best ever, along with a few others.

    My previous post wasnt serious btw, it was just mocking some of the over the top by other Yu Na fans in this thread.

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by itoaxel View Post
    I am not a Mao fan, but I think it is silly to say nobody would consider Mao above Kim or Kwan. Are you saying there is no debate who is the best skater of the Kim-Asada era and everyone says it is Kim. Of course not. Maybe a Kimbot thinks that, but not reality.
    It is my opinion that Mao is superior to Kim and Kwan. Although I think that her superiority over Kwan is marginal.

  16. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by AndyWarhol View Post
    It is my opinion that Mao is superior to Kim and Kwan. Although I think that her superiority over Kwan is marginal.
    I also think Mao is a better skater than both Kwan and Kim. My ranking of them is Mao >> Kim > Kwan.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Mao never had a chance against Yuna in 2010 in Vancouver regardless if she was clean or not. Yuna was on a different level then any other skater at the time.
    Yes in Vancouver Kim was the best and would have won even if everyone skated cleanly (and deservedly). However in Sochi she was lucky Mao and Julia mesed up or she wouldnt have even medalled probably. Sotnikova only beat her by bad judging, but one could argue with fair judging Kostner beats her, along with Mao and Julia skating well, so she would still be off the podium in Sochi with all skating their best even with fair judging of Sotikova.

    The only two years with everyone skating their best and with fair judging Kim wins is 2009 and 2010. 2008 would be a toss up between Mao and Kim with both skating their best and fair judging. Every other year- 2007, 2011, 2012, 2013, 2006, 2014 Mao wins with both fair judging and both skating their best. Maybe Kim would win some of those even with both skating their best by biased juging, but fair judging Mao wins all those years. So overall Mao is still better most of the time if both skating their best, and judging is right. And the years Kim wins with both skating their best and fair judging, Mao is still 2nd behind Kim each time in that case, not 4th like Kim in sometimes like 2014.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    No, but certain Mao fans love to demonize other fandoms without provocation. Also, I'm sure if you go to a forum that has a lot of Mao fans posting, and posed an underrated poll, you'll see her with a substantial amount of votes. FSU polls are a very small sample size. Regarding the vitriol fired at Kwan fans, I think there's some residual anger from the Kwan era at play here. BTW, I greatly prefer Mao over Yuna personally.
    Just because some people think Kim and/or Kwan are overrated does not imply bitterness. I like Kwan alot, but I think she probably is a little overrated, atleast in the U.S. She competed in an era without much competition, other than Slutskaya there was no real threat she had that lasted longer than a year her whole career; and many laugh at Slutskaya and how overrated she was today and it seems in hindsight she had to be artificially pushed up to be Kwan's rival by default since there was literally nobody else there 90% of Kwan's career. It is obvious Irina is a far less talented and complete skater than all of Kim, Asada, Kostner, Sotnikova, even probably Ando and Rochette. Compare that to today when you have Mao, Kim, Koster, the Russian girls, Ando, and others all battlig it out for big titles for many years.

    Meanwhile I admit I am not so fond of Kim, but I still respect her as a great skater. However objectively speaking she is pretty overrated too, maybe even more than Kwan in some ways. People pump her up as some dominant skater, but she only won worlds twice. How can you dominate and win the biggest annual event only twice, LOL! She even lost worlds to Miki Ando twice, and while Ando is a great jumper that shouldnt happen to someone who is a dominant as Kim's fans potray her as. That is not dominating. Yeah I know Mao isnt dominant either, but that is due to her inconsistency. Kim is very consistent but still doesnt dominate, which suggest she just isnt quite good enough to really dominant in the deep field of today, which Mao is and would if she were more consistent.
    Last edited by Gabybackhand; 05-20-2014 at 06:06 PM.

  19. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabybackhand View Post
    Just because some people think Kim and/or Kwan are overrated does not imply bitterness. I like Kwan alot, but I think she probably is a little overrated, atleast in the U.S. She competed in an era without much competition, other than Slutskaya there was no real threat she had that lasted longer than a year her whole career. Compare that to today when you have Mao, Kim, Koster, the Russian girls, Ando, and others all battlig it out for big titles for many years.

    Meanwhile I admit I am not so fond of Kim, but I still respect her as a great skater. However objectively speaking she is pretty overrated too, maybe even more than Kwan in some ways. People pump her up as some dominant skater, but she only won worlds twice. How can you dominate and win the biggest annual event only twice, LOL! She even lost worlds to Miki freaking Ando TWICE. That is not dominating. Yeah I know Mao isnt dominant either, but that is due to her inconsistency. Kim is very consistent but still doesnt dominate, which suggest she just isnt quite good enough to really dominant in the deep field of today, which Mao is and would if she were more consistent.
    Kim hasn't been to nearly as many Worlds as Mao has. In 2011 Kim hadn't even skated once all season yet still finished 2nd and if she had been competing all season she would have probably won by about 20 points.

  20. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jammers View Post
    Kim hasn't been to nearly as many Worlds as Mao has. In 2011 Kim hadn't even skated once all season yet still finished 2nd and if she had been competing all season she would have probably won by about 20 points.
    Kim made about the same number of errors as Ando at the 2011 worlds and still lost, and Ando made only 5 triples without a triple-triple to Kim who had 5 with a triple-triple and still passed her from behind to win. Yeah if Kim skates better she wins, but maybe not if Ando skates like Four Continents, and if Mao skates cleanly she probably beats both.

    Kim not competing as regularly just shows that she lacks the drive to keep challenging herself and pushing for dominance as Mao. Mao is inconsistent but she is always looking to better herself both technically and artistically. Kim reached her peak in 2008-2010 then coasted on her laurels, never improving again, and if anything declining even when she was clean. That is why she wasnt good enough to dominate long term the way Mao atleast could have, even though unlike Mao she is very consistent but most of her career someone outskated her.

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