View Poll Results: Most overmarked or held up skater of all time

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  • Chan

    107 24.94%
  • Sotnikova

    108 25.17%
  • Kwan

    41 9.56%
  • Stojko

    8 1.86%
  • Lysacek

    21 4.90%
  • Bestiamanova & Bukin

    5 1.17%
  • Savchenko & Szolkowy

    1 0.23%
  • Navka & Kostomarov

    7 1.63%
  • Lobacheva & Averbuhk

    9 2.10%
  • Fusar Poli & Margalio

    34 7.93%
  • Sale & Pelletier

    47 10.96%
  • other (specify)

    41 9.56%
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  1. #441
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Holistically, from 2001-2003, Suguri was the better skater. From 2004-on, Sasha was the better skater even though I greatly preferred Suguri's 2005 LP to Cohen's forgettable Nutcracker routine.
    Sasha was the best skater in the world from fall 2002 to 2006, with the exception of the 18 month period from July 2004-December 2005 when Mao Asada and Irina Slutskaya were both better. She just never put it together at a big event. Had she skated well at the 2003 worlds she would have won either gold or silver easily, and Fumie wouldn't have been close to her. Fumie won bronze after Sasha had a bunch of falls. Fumie was never competitive with a good Sasha after 2002, and even in early 2002 she probably couldn't beat a clean Sasha.

    Today Sasha is still lauded over for her skills and called a special skater despite not winning a big title. Fumie is forgotten by all but the biggest skating diehards, and even they wouldn't note her previous existence if it weren't for her making herself stand out by trying to compete amateur at 40 years old or something. BTW I am not a Sasha fan in the least, and I always rooted against her when she competed.

  2. #442

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    Fumie may be forgotten, but is Sasha really lauded? Do people outside the biggest skating diehards even know who Sasha is? I always find the argument that "only skating fans remember…" because that's true for almost EVERY skater. People like us obsess over them. Regular people will remember the big names for a 2 week period during the Olympics then forget all about them unless they hit the mainstream.

    Now that I was able to rewatch Suguri in the 2002-2003 season, I do take back my comment a bit. Sasha was becoming a better skater even then. However, Fumie for some reason was a better skater in 2002 and 2004-2005 than she was in 2003. She had some really boring programs. I still maintain that Fumie's speed, edges, and ice coverage were miles ahead of Sasha in 2002/2003 season though and Sasha's all style and no substance skating (outside that 3Flutz/3Toe that came from no where at 2003 Worlds followed by shaky skating and small ice coverage) didn't do much for me until the 2004 season where she improved her skating skills and skated bigger.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  3. #443
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    Sasha is heavily praised by many in skating even today. On skating forums there is still lots of talk of Sasha, some young skaters pinpoint her as an inspiration for them, and people like Dick Button, Tracy Wilson, Jamie Sale, Liz Manley, have all brought her up during their commentary. I tend to agree Sasha made a mark on the sport, and Fumie not so much. When you think of that era you think of Irina, Michelle, and Sasha. You don't even think of Shizuka as much as Sasha despite that she won the big titles, but she is a legend for life in Japan and an ambassador of sorts for the sport today worldwide, while fumie sadly even in Japan is probably completely lost in the shuffle now with Ito's still standing legacy, Shizuka carving out such a prominent pro career even today, and their new hero the great Mao Asada. Even someone like Miki Ando probably far overshadows Fumie in popularity and impact in Japan.

  4. #444
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    Today Sasha is still lauded over for her skills and called a special skater despite not winning a big title.
    I always thought Sasha was overpraised and overhyped when she was an amateur. I thought she had rather weak edges and her skating in general seemed like style over substance.

  5. #445
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    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    I always thought Sasha was overpraised and overhyped when she was an amateur. I thought she had rather weak edges and her skating in general seemed like style over substance.
    She was still a joy to watch regardless of her results! Sasha was so much more of a ballerina than any other female skater during the time I watched the sport! Most of the time the skaters we produced moved about like they had a stick up their arse! They looked uncomfortable, stiff, without a lot of grace! Eldridge probably did more than the women when it came to style and trying to show some grace, but Sasha surpassed them all; including Kwan!

  6. #446

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Fumie may be forgotten, but is Sasha really lauded? Do people outside the biggest skating diehards even know who Sasha is? I always find the argument that "only skating fans remember…" because that's true for almost EVERY skater. People like us obsess over them. Regular people will remember the big names for a 2 week period during the Olympics then forget all about them unless they hit the mainstream.
    I don't think that Fumie is forgotten. Certainly not in Japan, and she had fans here too, fans who thought her to be a lovely, gentle and soulful skater. I was one of them - her exhibition Ava Maria program is one of my favourite exhibition programs ever. And I don't like very many exhibition numbers.

    This is not to say that Sasha, too, is lauded and remembered by many. However she doesn't have the name recognition of many other top skaters because she didn't win any major titles and had the misfortune of skating in Kwan's shadow.

    However, I doubt that casual fans who watch FS every four years at the Olympics remember either. More will remember Sasha in the US, while more Fumie in Japan.

  7. #447
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    However, I doubt that casual fans who watch FS every four years at the Olympics remember either. More will remember Sasha in the US, while more Fumie in Japan.
    and anywhere else (not U.S or Japan) more will also remember Sasha.

    I wouldn't even be so sure more remember Fumie in Japan btw. Fumie isn't even popular enough in Japan to tour, while Sasha got huge ovations everytime she skated in Japan, and is still in high demand for shows anywhere in the world, Japan included. It certainly isn't the blowout asking who is more remembered in the U.S (which is basically asking which is larger, an ocean or a pond).

    I would also say Sasha is more popular and known in the U.S than Tara Lipinski despite Tara's far greater achievements and dominance in the sport. So it isn't all about the titles/important medals although Sasha has more of those than Fumie as well anyway.

  8. #448
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    Lysacek was way overscored. I don't know how he could even get higher marks than Weir when both skated cleanly. Weir has bigger and way higher quality jumps, about equal spins, weaker footwork, better basic skating, much better artistry, so overall should score higher, but you look at Evan's championship season and he is crushing Weir in everything- GOE, PCS, even when Weir is clean. How can Lysacek without a quad beat a clean Plushenko with his quad-triples, while a way better skater like Lambiel skating cleanly with quads cant beat a clean Plushenko. So yeah he is way overscored. More overscored than some of the people he is behind on this poll like Kwan and Chan, although maybe not as overscored as Sale & Pelletier and Sotnikova.

    I wonder who the other votes are for. I am going to guess they are for Gritschuk & Platov, who should have been on this poll. Probably atleast 35 of the 41 are for them.

  9. #449

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    Quote Originally Posted by hirtmoles31 View Post
    How can Lysacek without a quad beat a clean Plushenko with his quad-triples, while a way better skater like Lambiel skating cleanly with quads cant beat a clean Plushenko.
    Plushenko had a sub-par past-his-prime skate at the 2010 Olympics, which allowed Lysacek to beat him. Lambiel could have beaten him too, if he skated like that. But Plusenko was in his prime and completely dominated the field with deadly consistency during the years when he competed against Lambiel.

    If Plush had skated in 2010 as he did in 2006, Lycasek would not have had a chance.
    Last edited by Japanfan; 07-08-2014 at 05:36 AM.

  10. #450
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    Plushenko of 2006 would have easily crushed Lysacek even with clean quads. Lambiel of 2006 skating cleanly would have beaten the 2006 Plushenko if he had the respect level/recognition he had built up in the sport by 2008.

  11. #451
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Plushenko had a sub-par past-his-prime skate at the 2010 Olympics, which allowed Lysacek to beat him. Lambiel could have beaten him too, if he skated like that. But Plusenko was in his prime and completely dominated the field with deadly consistency during the years when he competed against Lambiel.

    If Plush had skated in 2010 as he did in 2006, Lycasek would not have had a chance.
    You are right but Evan was still overscored in 2010. Plushenko probably deserved to beat him on the basis of his quad-triples, even as meh as the rest of his skating was there. Takahashi even with his fall probably deserved to as well. Someone like Johnny Weir skated cleanly and is a more talented skater than Evan and got way lower scores. There is probably basis for Evan beating Johnny, but still overall it is clear his scores were heavily boosted by his world champion status (with the huge luck of having previous year worlds in practically his hometown), Inman's anti Plushenko latter, Frank Carrol politics, and other elements. There is a reason he has a lot of votes on this poll.

  12. #452
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Fumie may be forgotten, but is Sasha really lauded? Do people outside the biggest skating diehards even know who Sasha is?
    I can't speak for the rest of the world, but yes, within the US a lot of people know who Sasha Cohen is. When she appeared on Project Runway, for example, a number of the dress designers did already know who she was, and I doubt they were all skating fans. I think the fuss and attention the media paid to her attempt to qualify for the 2010 Olympics indicates pretty well that she was way better known than anybody else at Nationals, at least.

  13. #453
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I can't speak for the rest of the world, but yes, within the US a lot of people know who Sasha Cohen is. When she appeared on Project Runway, for example, a number of the dress designers did already know who she was, and I doubt they were all skating fans. I think the fuss and attention the media paid to her attempt to qualify for the 2010 Olympics indicates pretty well that she was way better known than anybody else at Nationals, at least.
    Even being well known still today just in the skating world would have easily trumped Fumie anyway though. Does anyone in skating, outside of maybe Japan and a forum of skating geeks like this, ever talk about Fumie these days.

  14. #454
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    Quote Originally Posted by douglasottawa View Post
    Plushenko of 2006 would have easily crushed Lysacek even with clean quads. Lambiel of 2006 skating cleanly would have beaten the 2006 Plushenko if he had the respect level/recognition he had built up in the sport by 2008.
    Nobody could have beaten Plushenko in 2006, including Lambiel. I get so sick of this "if he had skated cleanly" BS. You may as well say Cohen would have won if she had landed her quad salchow. The reality is the triple axel was not a realistic part of Lambiel's repertoire anymore and there is no way the judges would have placed the 2008 version of Lambiel over the 2006 version of Plushenko without that. To be honest, I don't think they would have placed him over Plushenko even with a 3 axel. (Maybe they should have, as Lambiel is a great stylist and way better spinner, but they wouldn't have because Plushenko's rep and consistency was just insurmountable..

  15. #455
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    Lambiel has landed about 7 clean triple axels so it is a part of his repertoire. Just not a reliable one. By 2010 it probably no longer was, although he could have won in 2010 even without one.

  16. #456
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollingrace View Post
    Lambiel has landed about 7 clean triple axels so it is a part of his repertoire. Just not a reliable one. By 2010 it probably no longer was, although he could have won in 2010 even without one.
    Well the judges were at least giving him the PCS marks to...

  17. #457
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    Quote Originally Posted by rollingrace View Post
    Lambiel has landed about 7 clean triple axels so it is a part of his repertoire. Just not a reliable one. By 2010 it probably no longer was, although he could have won in 2010 even without one.
    Can you break those 7 triple axels out by year? I doubt many of them came after after 2006. Way more often than not he either failed to land it or just did a double. Basically, he did not really have 3 axel well before 2010, just like Lysacek's quad was gone by 2010.

  18. #458
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    He did one cleanly in both the qualifying round and final free program of the 2006 worlds (the LP one was called < but everyone agrees that was one of the most bogus calls ever made so I disregard it). He did one cleanly in both the qualifying round and short program of the 2005 worlds. He did one cleanly in his long program at the 2007 worlds. He did one cleanly in both the qualifying round and free program at the 2004 worlds. I don't remember if he did another one again after the 2007 worlds. I don't recall any in the 2007-2008 season despite having some success, winning the grand prix final.

  19. #459
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    Chan and Sotnikova come nowhere near Sale & Pelletier. Sale & Pelletier should be easily winning this poll. Chan and Sotnikova should be down with Kwan in votes. I would say those three are at a similar level in overscoring, but Sale & Pelletier are way above each. Their SLC gold was the last straw of a career full of straws.

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