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  1. #61
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    Considering Sale & Pelletier undeservedly beat Elena & Anton at the 2000 Grand prix final and 2001 worlds, and even had two 1st place ordinals for a far inferior short program at SLC, politics most certainly heavily favored S&P always in their rivalry.

    I am glad S&P these days are a vilified team who gets no respect. Just as they deserve. The only time they are even brought up is for their string of controversial wins over B&S, and the media fabricated controversy at the 2002 Games and their horrible sportsmanship. They arent even a top 20 pair team of all time. In the last 15 years alone Berezhnaya & Sikharulidze, Totmianina & Marinin, Volosozhar & Trankov, Savchenko & Szolkowy, and Shen & Zhao all would rank higher, so they arent even a top 5 pair team in the last only 15 years.

  2. #62

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Does anyone know why Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze did not have Meditation in the early part of the 2001-2002 season? It's sort of odd that they didn't have a new routine off the bat to kick off the Olympic season.
    They started working on it at the start of the season but Anton got injured in a fall (during a lift) during practice, so they could not practice it for sometime. When the GP series began, the program was not ready, so they used Citylights, which they had more mileage on. They skated parts of Meditation in a couple of exhibitions in Germany, but didn't skate the complete program until GPF. It showed at GPF, but after that Moskvina made some music changes to fit the judging criteria better, changed the costumes, and by Feb. 2002 they were ready.

  3. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    They actually didn't have a political advantage, given that the French Judge was ordered to give B&S the win. Four other judges were in agreement with that decision as well, it seem. Politics favoured B&S, actually.
    What about the western politics? The German and Canadian judges placed S&P higher than B&S in the SP, which was mind boggling.

    S&P's political advantage was not limited to a particular judging panel. It began a couple of seasons earlier. In 2001 they were given the GPF win over B&S even though S&P had a fall in their performance. At worlds they were given the 2001 world title. It's not like it happened instantaneously in SLC. Politics are never about one moment; it takes a lot to build up to it, and S&P had their ducks lined up, including an easy program that they knew they could skate in their sleep.

  4. #64
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    S&P knew the politics was so heavy in their favor they just had to stand up to win, no matter what B&S did. That is why they gave up their Orchid program they were struggling with all season and went back to the easy safe Love Story. They knew they did not have to take the risk of doing a program as choreographically complex as B&S, as they had such a judging cushion. That is why they were so shocked when they didnt win.

  5. #65
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    Quote Originally Posted by KimGOAT View Post
    I am glad S&P these days are a vilified team who gets no respect. Just as they deserve. The only time they are even brought up is for their string of controversial wins over B&S, and the media fabricated controversy at the 2002 Games and their horrible sportsmanship.
    I am not an S/P fan as I've repeatedly made clear but I'm tired of hearing about "their" bad sportsmanship. Jamie is a piece of work but what was so bad about David? Could you point out example showing how he was a poor sport? IIRC he was extremely gracious to B/S on the podium and backstage before the duplicate gold medals. By the end of the evening he was shrugging off the close call and even cracking jokes. So what did he do that was so horrible? It's extremely unfair to brand someone a poor sport based on his partner's behavior. I don't recall everyone calling Isabelle Brasseur a jerk or bad sport simply when Lloyd Eisler acted like an ass.

  6. #66

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    S&P's political advantage was not limited to a particular judging panel. It began a couple of seasons earlier. In 2001 they were given the GPF win over B&S even though S&P had a fall in their performance. At worlds they were given the 2001 world title. It's not like it happened instantaneously in SLC. Politics are never about one moment; it takes a lot to build up to it, and S&P had their ducks lined up, including an easy program that they knew they could skate in their sleep.
    This is a brilliant observation. Politics are indeed never about a moment. People tend to forget that.

  7. #67

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    And yet, B/S won SLC. So were politicks really in S/P's favor or were they just being set up in the big picture? If we're going to make conspiracy theories then anything goes.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  8. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by arakwafan2006 View Post
    B&S were in my opinion the last of Moskvina's pairs that really understood Tamara's style and could handle it. ...I loved B&S. Their dominance and unmatched elegance are captivating.
    For me, they are the last of the truly great pairs, but I did not like the some of the choreo Moskvina did for them and I think she was part of the reason they weren't loved as much as they might have been. As skaters, they were so similar in style to Gordeeva & Grinkov that it just looked weird to see them doing Mishkutenok & Dmitriev feel choreo.

    Still for me, they were a truly great pair. I think, though, they never really quite achieved their potential, which could be another reason why they weren't as appreciated as they might have been. While they had some exquisite short programs, so often the free skate had a little mistake here or there, plus there was the problem of the choreography not quite satisfying. So many times I was left with a feeling of disappointment, as I had wanted and expected better and there was just something lacking. Some of their SOI programs were especially ill-conceived. Either they were getting bad advice or they were ignoring what good advice they did get. Much as I loved Moskvina's choreo on M&D and Betchke & Petrov, I always hoped B&S someday would try some other choreographers.

  9. #69
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    I'm curious what exactly they did. They accepted the gold medal, but what else? I remember when I watched SLC Olympics this scandal with judging was explained on TV, but that was all. TV in my country didn't show any interviews. And in 2002 I didn't spend much time in front of Internet. But after years every now and then I can notice people hate S/P so much and write about their behaviour.
    I tried to ignore all that was written about it in 2002 because I was so upset for B&S. But I remember Jamie's ridiculous sobbing on the podium, her comments that she thought the placements were a joke because it was impossible to skate so well and come second, that it felt like a punch in the stomach, that she didn't want to be on the podium, that the ISU should resolve this as soon as possible, that she always knew the Russian mob was behind the judging, that justice was done by awarding her the Gold etc etc.

    She never once said that it was a close competition in which there was merit for both pairs to win (what B&S were saying). The whole thing was disgusting and it broke my heart to see B&S forcing smiles on the podium for a second time when S&P were stealing their glory. The French judge was crazy, but nothing would have happened had S&P's reaction been a bit more decent. Dave married Jamie, so I blame him too

  10. #70
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    There's a new thread about the Skating Lesson website. Since I haven't heard about it before I looked through it. And there's an interesting interview with Jamie. Among other things she talks about the rivalry with B/S. And it is especially interesting to listen to it, because she talks about it from the perspective of time.

  11. #71
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    I am not an S/P fan as I've repeatedly made clear but I'm tired of hearing about "their" bad sportsmanship. Jamie is a piece of work but what was so bad about David?
    My general impression that David was pretty funny and that Jamie was dumb as a post, but that really doesn't have anything to do with their skating. During their competitive careers I thought they were over-rated and overmarked. Yes, they usually could deliver the technical goods, but they never really reached that "aaah" quality that separates the great from the good for me in pairs. I don't have any doubt they were getting a big push from somewhere.

    It was interesting how quickly both their skills and performance quality deteriorated once the joined SOI. While I didn't care for some of Ber/Sihk's music/choreo choices, it was really obvious they were the OGM quality pair of these two and clearly a level above S/P. IMO B/S should have had at least a one error margin over them and never should have lost to S/P with a relatively clean skate.

  12. #72

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    I agree with Susan. David and Jamie shouldn't be judged as a 'unit' in the 2002 situation. Jamie came off as extremely self-serving, dumb and vindictive. I think David didn't know what to do with the situation and tried to be funny or something. I will say this. Jamie really came off over the course of her career (and beyond) as a nasty person. Figure skaters are people; they all have different personalities and some are just not nice.

    And as over-rated as they were back in the day, S&P are equally as underrated now. They were not on B&S level - but they were good, and they brought something different to the sport. I know karma is a b**ch, but lets get real. They were a welcome addition to the world of pairs skating, and a breath of fresh air. They'd be a lot more appreciated, IMO, had they GRACEFULLY accepted their (completely correct) second place finish in SLC. They were not in the same league as B&S. I agree that B&S should have had a one major error margin over them based on quality of their skating. It was a purely political thing, and it left the sport in shambles.
    Last edited by Perky Shae Lynn; 05-18-2014 at 04:31 PM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Perky Shae Lynn View Post
    I agree with Susan. David and Jamie shouldn't be judged as a 'unit' in the 2002 situation.
    He still married her

  14. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    He still married her
    Well, he did - but he paid the price for it. He had to live with her.

  15. #75
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    Quote Originally Posted by coraczek View Post
    There's a new thread about the Skating Lesson website. Since I haven't heard about it before I looked through it. And there's an interesting interview with Jamie. Among other things she talks about the rivalry with B/S. And it is especially interesting to listen to it, because she talks about it from the perspective of time.
    I just watched that. So... Jamie claims S&P had to be perfect to win whereas B&S could make a mistake here and there. Yeah right. S&P used to fall and still win over B&S. According to Jamie, in 2002 B&S's programme was simple, S&P won 3 out of 4 elements, and that they would still win today Humble as always.

  16. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    . The French judge was crazy, but nothing would have happened had S&P's reaction been a bit more decent.


    The ISU has such a history of changing results when skaters sulk and whine and say they were better than their opponents and it was politics/location that gave gold to their competitors. 2002 Pairs was the exception to this long-standing practice.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    I just watched that. So... Jamie claims S&P had to be perfect to win whereas B&S could make a mistake here and there. Yeah right. S&P used to fall and still win over B&S. According to Jamie, in 2002 B&S's programme was simple, S&P won 3 out of 4 elements, and that they would still win today Humble as always.
    They would still win today? Delusional. Their programs today were be lucky to crack 70 in the short program and a 130 in the long program.

    You are right there was a period Jamie missed a jump in nearly every program and were winning over clean B&S. She tries to invent a myth SLC where they skated perfectly clean and B&S made a bigger mistake was the norm. What Jamie Slute claims is really the reverse. B&S had to be absolutely perfect to even hope to win, and S&P could make a mistake here and there and still win even when B&S were perfect.

    S&P won 3 of 4 elements? WTF, there are 8 or 9 different categories of technical elements alone in pair skating. Maybe she just wrote off any of their weaker elements and left the ones remaining. Here is how I would compare their elements though:

    Jumps- tie. Usually B&S would crush S&P here. As it is S&P did the triple toes clean but hers was small and they had bad unision on it as always. B&S had much better triple toes. The double axel sequence goes to S&P due to Anton's foot down.

    Spins- tie.

    Footwork- B&S had a much more difficult sequence. S&P's was well done and playful but simple.

    Spirals/moves in field- B&S are much better here.

    Lifts- Would go with S&P.

    Twist- About equal. S&P have a better catch, but theirs was much smaller.

    Throws- About equal. B&S had slightly weaker landings but still clean, while S&P's are smaller.

    Stroking/basic skating- B&S easily.

    Death spirals- S&P probably get the edge here.

    So even in technical elements they were about a tie, and S&P won the tech. mark easily. On artistic components B&S should and for once did rightfully win that night.
    Last edited by butyrskafanatic; 05-18-2014 at 05:47 PM.

  18. #78
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    The French judge was crazy, but nothing would have happened had S&P's reaction been a bit more decent.
    I doubt it. Once the French judge cracked and talked to the other official (judge?) the ISU could not ignore it, especially at an event as big and visible as the Olympics. Had it been 2001 Worlds, they might have found a way to paper over it, but in the Olympics with so many "outsiders" watching they had to deal with judge misconduct in a fairly showy way.

    It is true, though, that there have been other instances of Olympic judge misconduct in other sports where they did not overturn results, and that is where Jamie's tears and the yammering of the North American media may have made a difference.

  19. #79
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    When else has the ISU ignored a confession by an official that he or she was told to pre-judge a competition?
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  20. #80

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    I think people are choosing to misremember the whole audience reaction in the arena. In SLC, there was a wave of disappointment and anger at the pairs result and there's a reason why the French judge finally cracked. She was dealing with the anger from one side and probably could not ignore the toxic situation that the pairs result initially caused.

    We skating fans know to pay attention to important qualities that should be rewarded in figure skating and we all know B/S had very strong arguments to support their win. However, S/P's program was the one that was perceived to be clean and was the one that the audience in the arena really got behind and felt on an emotional level. I think it's that initial disappointment plus mob mentality that played a much bigger role in the media reaction and the scandal than anything Jamie did. Her tears and media interviews seriously helped, but it would have gone no where had the general audience not initially buy the idea that they were robbed. Sandra Bezic said that we "super fans" who watched on tv or the computer don't get it but in the arena, the shared view by the vast majority of those who watched it live was that S/P won. Not that that matters in scoring, but there's a reason why S/P grabbed the audience and that had a lot to do with the media reaction afterwards. Yes I know some of you were there and rooted for B/S and were happy with their win (like Irina Rodnina), but you cannot ignore that loud wave of anger in the arena after S/P's scores unless you are choosing to be willfully blind and deaf.

    IMO, some people have a hard time giving S/P credit for anything and those posters' bitterness seriously makes them lose objectivity. Even we accept B/S are vastly superior in skill, that doesn't mean S/P had nothing to offer pairs skating at the time nor does it mean S/P didn't do certain things better.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

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