Page 3 of 12 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast
Results 41 to 60 of 240
  1. #41
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    23
    Posts
    13,204
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Andora View Post
    Some people on this board make Sale & Pelletier sound unfit to place in the top 10 in 2002...
    While the judges general scoring of the two teams prior to SLC, and the over the top reaction by all to B&S winning over the godly S&P in 2002 with only a minor error would make you think S&P were a good 4 falls better than everyone else, especialy the dreadful B&S, and that B&S were the ones unfit to place in the top 10 from 2000-2002.


    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I mean skating fans' treatment of B/S is a cakewalk compared to what Sale/Pelletier receive to this very day.
    This might be true but it is karma doing its job as far as I am concerned. S&P being underrated and not even valued for their strengths today is essentialy the skating gods payback for years of blatant overscoring, many undeserved wins, and a farcial 100 times bigger than it should have ever been overreaction (which they helped greatly to fuel despite the insistence of some of their fans otherwise) to what was at absolute most could only have been a slightly controversial win to anyone reasonable or level headed.

    Kind of similar to how Bestiamanova & Bukin being in fact underrated and undervalued by most today is karma for years of overscoring and an undeserved complete and total 4 year dominance of the sport. In their case I feel more empathy for though as atleast they were always incredibly nice, classy, and sport people. I think they even admitted once or twice they thought K&P were going to win after seeing their performance. Imagine S&P in a million years ever doing that, lol! I still remember a reporter mentioning to S&P it was funny they said nothing after the 2001 worlds when they were raising such a sink now 2 days after the SLC LP and David almost blew his top like how dare you say such a thing.
    Last edited by judgejudy27; 05-13-2014 at 11:17 PM.

  2. #42

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,819
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    36867
    I think there's certainly over-the-top reactions still in existence, but it's not coming from the S/P side. This is weird because I'm a huge B/S fan and would have given them the first place ordinal.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  3. #43

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91441
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I think there's certainly over-the-top reactions still in existence, but it's not coming from the S/P side. This is weird because I'm a huge B/S fan and would have given them the first place ordinal.
    Could it be because S&P got the gold by crying and media hype, while B&S were essentially robbed of their Olympic glory, after skating an incredibly difficult program?

  4. #44

    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Vancouver Canada
    Age
    55
    Posts
    12,706
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    11163
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Could it be because S&P got the gold by crying and media hype, while B&S were essentially robbed of their Olympic glory, after skating an incredibly difficult program?
    Oh, for heavens sake. Are you saying they engineered the French judge's admission of corruption, now?

    Some people on this board make Sale & Pelletier sound unfit to place in the top 10 in 2002...
    No kidding. The competition in 2002 was one of those very close ones in which the debate is seen as cleanliness versus artistry. But the complete bashing of S&P we see on this board is unwarranted, IMO.

    I thought S&P had more of the 'wow' or 'X' factor than B&S. B&S had power, style and elegance, but IMO were lacking in expression, Elena in particular - of Dan Zhang proportions. Chaplin being somewhat of an exception.

    S&P were certainly not the first skater/team to return to an old program. Doing so did not disqualify them for a run at Olympic Gold.

    The program Victor Petrenko skated at the '92 Olympics was three years old, I think? But someone that is okay, because he is an 'artiste'?

    I was disappointed when S&P did not skate 'Orchid' at the Olympics, but at the same time, loved their 'Love Story' and was really impressed with how they delivered it in SLC.

    In the commentary following the initial results, Debbi Wilkes noted that judges had 'okayed' their returning to 'Love Story' - that S&P had not made that the decision to go back to the program without getting feedback about it.

    So did the judges deliberately mislead them, then?
    Last edited by Japanfan; 05-14-2014 at 07:38 AM.

  5. #45

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,819
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    36867
    Does anyone know why Berezhnaya/Sikharulidze did not have Meditation in the early part of the 2001-2002 season? It's sort of odd that they didn't have a new routine off the bat to kick off the Olympic season.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  6. #46
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2013
    Posts
    250
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    B&S had the "X-factor". There was just something magical about them and their programmes are unforgettable. Elena's story, her beautiful skating, Anton's elegance were all quite perfect. Their only problem was that they couldn't handle pressure, especially Anton. They just gifted their Gold in 1998 to a terrible pair and they would have legitimately won in 2002 if they stayed clean. Their nerves always got the better of them at big events.
    ITA

    Their repulsive reaction was one of the most disgusting displays of unsportsmanlike behaviour in the history of figure skating (only second to Harding's antics).
    I'm curious what exactly they did. They accepted the gold medal, but what else? I remember when I watched SLC Olympics this scandal with judging was explained on TV, but that was all. TV in my country didn't show any interviews. And in 2002 I didn't spend much time in front of Internet. But after years every now and then I can notice people hate S/P so much and write about their behaviour.

  7. #47
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,430
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    Oh, for heavens sake. Are you saying they engineered the French judge's admission of corruption, now?
    It's hilarious the great lengths that people will go to blame S/P for the duplicate gold medal. It's completely insane, irrational and downright ignorant to suggest that S/P whining about second place produced a gold medal out of nowhere. Did whining help Frattianne or Kerrigan or Sumners or Torvill and Dean or Lu Chen or Sasha Cohen or other skaters that complained about a controversial result? No. They complained and the subject was eventually dropped because no improper behavior was discover. Yet in SLC the French judge admitted she was coerced into voting for the Russians. Her score was thrown out. DUH. Should it have stood? Come on. That left 8 judges on the panel. 4 went for B/S and 4 went for S/P. It was thus a tie outcome. At that point two gold medals was a no brainer. How hard is that to understand? It's just common sense, people. What were the ISU supposed to do? Ignore a now tied outcome? To blame the second gold medal on S/P is just clueless. Sure they expressed their disappointment to the press but they were hardly the first to do that. I expect mindless accusations of whining producing gold medals from non-skating fans who don't follow the sport. But real skating fans should know how the second gold medal came about. Oh and by the way, I think B/S deserved the win, but based on the French judge's score being thrown out and a dead tie remaining, I agree with the event having two winners.

  8. #48
    Sabre-rattler
    Join Date
    Dec 2002
    Location
    In the Rocky Mountains of Madness
    Posts
    589
    vCash
    550
    Rep Power
    11860
    Quote Originally Posted by blue_idealist View Post
    No, I think Petrova/Tikhonov should be added to the underappreciated list though.
    I know I under-appreciate them.
    Like a leaf on the wind

  9. #49

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    2,490
    vCash
    483
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    It's hilarious the great lengths that people will go to blame S/P for the duplicate gold medal. It's completely insane, irrational and downright ignorant to suggest that S/P whining about second place produced a gold medal out of nowhere. Did whining help Frattianne or Kerrigan or Sumners or Torvill and Dean or Lu Chen or Sasha Cohen or other skaters that complained about a controversial result? No. They complained and the subject was eventually dropped because no improper behavior was discover. Yet in SLC the French judge admitted she was coerced into voting for the Russians. Her score was thrown out. DUH. Should it have stood? Come on. That left 8 judges on the panel. 4 went for B/S and 4 went for S/P. It was thus a tie outcome. At that point two gold medals was a no brainer. How hard is that to understand? It's just common sense, people. What were the ISU supposed to do? Ignore a now tied outcome? To blame the second gold medal on S/P is just clueless. Sure they expressed their disappointment to the press but they were hardly the first to do that. I expect mindless accusations of whining producing gold medals from non-skating fans who don't follow the sport. But real skating fans should know how the second gold medal came about. Oh and by the way, I think B/S deserved the win, but based on the French judge's score being thrown out and a dead tie remaining, I agree with the event having two winners.
    What do you think about the comments of several judges in this video from Worlds 2002?
    As of March 2013 - no longer scared of TAHbKA or Andrey aka Pushkin

  10. #50
    I <3 Kozuka
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Vancouver/Seattle
    Posts
    19,181
    vCash
    730
    Rep Power
    43796
    If the ISU had simply thrown out Le Gougne's ordinal and underlying marks, it would have been been a tie between S/P and B/S in the FS. The first tiebreak in the FS was the presentation mark at that time under OBO, typically with the odd judge's tie broken on the second mark. Had the concept applied in SLC, B/S would have won the FS 6-5.9's to 4-5.9's. If they decided the FS results were too tainted, they could have assigned equal factors to both teams for the FS, which, when added to the SP results, would have resulted in a B/S win, since they handily won the SP, 7-2, or 6-2 without LeGougne's scores.

    If anything shows the ISU's thinking, icecalc has long shown that the ISU removed LeGougne's marks from the FS:
    http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg200...lts/SEG006.HTM

    but they did not for the SP:
    http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg200...lts/SEG005.HTM

    If she was pressured, there's no reason to think her SP marks weren't equally corrupt, even if they coincided with a strong majority.

    The decision was not based strictly on the math. The unprecedented second gold was neither a foregone conclusion nor the only solution. It was one that mattered most to the people making the decision, the ISU, and the IOC, and it was decided quickly and to shut down further investigation. This was not going to be their Whitewater.

    ETA: To say that the duplicate gold was simply the result of media wuzrobbing is naive. IOC behavior doesn't support changes in results for wuzrobbed scenarios in the least, only rules infractions (ex: doping, eligibility), and there have been more blatantly controversial results in many sports over the years, including ones involving death threats. The media goes on to the next competition in wuzrobbed scenarios where the results are based on judgement calls. Stories about cheating officials proved to be another matter. It wasn't Sandra Bezic, Scott Hamilton, or anyone from the NBC news team who got a teary confession from LeGougne.

    To blame S/P for the duplicate gold is preposterous. As if athletes themselves had that kind of power.

    Many skaters go under-appreciated because their greatest skills are not camera-friendly and/or the camera amplifies their weaknesses. While B/S's unison and lines can be appreciated on film, their skating skills and speed aren't as obvious, and the facial expressions that are so important to a camera aren't nearly as important in an arena, where projection through line, carriage, ice coverage, and three-dimensional body movement (often flattened by the camera) can grab an audience through harmony, momentum, and seamless transitions, to name just a few qualities. Margot Fonteyn, arguably one of the greatest dancers ever is generally on film. (And she was filmed a lot.) For some performers, you just have to be there.

    That doesn't mean they were consistent and should have won everything just because they showed up, and Moskvina recycled many of their signature moves and elements in their programs. (Not that this is unique to them.) But it also doesn't mean that their mastery of edges and superior line and unison should be under-appreciated.
    Last edited by kwanfan1818; 05-14-2014 at 06:10 PM.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  11. #51

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,819
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    36867
    Speaking of being there live, there is some thing to say that the S/P resonated more with those in the arena. Of course, they are not all skating fans who would appreciate the excellent quality that B/S brought. I think S/P simply has more easy-to-understand charisma and charm, had more of an emotional connection, and of course them being Canadian probably earned them some hometown advantage even though the event was in SLC.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  12. #52
    I <3 Kozuka
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Vancouver/Seattle
    Posts
    19,181
    vCash
    730
    Rep Power
    43796
    No doubt about it: different styles and qualities appeal to different people, and there wasn't a lot of overlap between each couple's greatest strengths, except, ironically, in the Chaplin program.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  13. #53

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,819
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    36867
    Yeah. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I really wish they had done Meditation in 2001 (which I never really bought as a good vehicle for them because it looked so forced and unnatural despite really beautiful if recycled moves and difficult transitions) and Chaplin in 2002. I really do think their Chaplin program would have gotten the audience to enjoy them a lot more because it was entertaining on a gut-level (whereas Meditation seemed more cerebral). Chaplin is also the only LP of theirs that I really love. The other ones are just ones that I appreciate but that has more to do with me loving their skating than their actual choreography.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  14. #54

    Join Date
    Jul 2002
    Posts
    7,154
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    43916
    According to the book The Second Mark, Moskvina changed the LP thinking it was much more of an 'Olympic' program. Anton wanted to keep Chaplin.

  15. #55
    I <3 Kozuka
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Vancouver/Seattle
    Posts
    19,181
    vCash
    730
    Rep Power
    43796
    It was Olympic season thinking that an Olympic-winning program had to be dramatic, and if not classical. Look at what happened to Pechalat/Bourzat in Sochi with their light, poignant FD, the one with actual holds.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  16. #56

    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Croatia
    Posts
    2,490
    vCash
    483
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparks View Post
    According to the book The Second Mark, Moskvina changed the LP thinking it was much more of an 'Olympic' program. Anton wanted to keep Chaplin.
    That's interesting. I remember they worked on the program and wanted to have it ready for the Olympics. I remember we found out the music late in summer and the program debuted at GPF.
    As of March 2013 - no longer scared of TAHbKA or Andrey aka Pushkin

  17. #57

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91441
    Quote Originally Posted by Sparks View Post
    According to the book The Second Mark, Moskvina changed the LP thinking it was much more of an 'Olympic' program. Anton wanted to keep Chaplin.
    I don't trust the Second Mark, because there are some errors and bias in it (against Anton), but I do know that Moskvina changed the LP to a more traditional one, because some judges told her to choose classical music for B&S after they lost the 2001 worlds (unfairly, IMO). Elena-Anton loved their Chaplin (Citylights) LP and wanted to skate to it, but the judges were split on it. Some said it was like an exhibition program. Of course it was politics, but Moskvina couldn't take a chance on it. Knowing that in North America S&P will have a big political advantage (they did, just not the way she thought), she created an extremely difficult program using a well known music (Meditation from Thais) to improve B&S's chances. It was a beautiful, lyrical program, skated with a slight imperfection.

    I have often wondered what would have happened if B&S had used Citylights for their Olympic LP? They would have skated it with more confidence, but it doesn't necessarily mean perfectly. IMO it would have given some judges an excuse for placing them lower than S&P, regardless of how anyone skated. In that end though, it didn't make a difference. The only thing that would have avoided the media circus was if B&S had skated the LP as perfectly as they did their SP Lady Caliph.

  18. #58

    Join Date
    Nov 2001
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    24,950
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    91441
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Yeah. I know this is an unpopular opinion, but I really wish they had done Meditation in 2001 (which I never really bought as a good vehicle for them because it looked so forced and unnatural despite really beautiful if recycled moves and difficult transitions) and Chaplin in 2002. I really do think their Chaplin program would have gotten the audience to enjoy them a lot more because it was entertaining on a gut-level (whereas Meditation seemed more cerebral). Chaplin is also the only LP of theirs that I really love. The other ones are just ones that I appreciate but that has more to do with me loving their skating than their actual choreography.
    Oddly, Citylights was my least favorite program of theirs. I don't mean that I didn't like it, but it had parts that didn't emphasize their strengths. IMO it was good for them to skate to Chaplin in 2001 because after what happened in 2000, Elena was very depressed. A change of style, watching Chaplin movies, and doing a comedy helped her emotionally, IMO. It allowed her to use acting rather than her inner emotions, and she discovered (I think Anton too) that she really enjoyed playing a character. Having fun while skating must have helped her a lot at that time. It was easy to see why they loved that program.

    FS judges are conservative, particularly when it comes to the Olympics. I don't believe that they would have bought the Chaplin program in 2002, if they could not buy it in 2001 (worlds). Of course there were a lot of politics associated with the 2001 season, and may be the judges wouldn't have given them the win regardless of what music they used.

  19. #59

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,819
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    36867
    I thought I preferred some of the nuances at the 2001 Worlds, I would have loved to see this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eLpXj6PD9HE against S/P's Love Story. I think it was clear that Anton and Elena really loved their City Lights LP and it shows in their performance. I don't think they performed with that much personality with any of their other competitive routines.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  20. #60

    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Vancouver Canada
    Age
    55
    Posts
    12,706
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    11163
    Quote Originally Posted by Vash01 View Post
    Knowing that in North America S&P will have a big political advantage (they did, just not the way she thought), she created an extremely difficult program using a well known music (Meditation from Thais) to improve B&S's chances. It was a beautiful, lyrical program, skated with a slight imperfection.
    They actually didn't have a political advantage, given that the French Judge was ordered to give B&S the win. Four other judges were in agreement with that decision as well, it seem. Politics favoured B&S, actually.

Page 3 of 12 FirstFirst 12345 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •