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  1. #81

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    There was no practice ice during the Olympics. If that doesn't change, I think it is a good reason not to give Sochi Worlds. It was a huge inconvenience to the athletes - some of the ladies from Europe who competed in the team event went home to practice, others flew to Germany.

    I am not opposed to requiring the country that hosts Worlds to uphold a standard of human rights protection, but doubt that is going to happen - especially with China to be hosting worlds.

    Generally I have a bad feeling about Sochi. In part because of the anti-gay law, in part because of the damage the Olympics caused the city and the people kicked out of their homes. And I did find the audience's nationalism a bit much. I've never felt that it was so loud and 'in your face' at other Olympics, but my generally negative perception of Sochi may have heightened that feeling. The judging issues didn't help much, either.

    And the stray dogs being killed broke my heart. I'm sure it has happened in other countries as well - seem to remember it happening in Greece - but I wasn't so aware of it.

    It is true that most countries do some harm in the name of the Olympics, but I've not been so affected by it in the past. The Western media may have played a part in that, as generally it seemed inclined to paint a less than rosy view of Sochi - Canadian media, anyway. In addition to covering all of the above, it highlighted empty seats at events and ridiculously long line-ups, and focused on various details such as the (hypocritical) banning of alcohol - granted, this isn't very important, but it deviated from tradition, leaving some hockey fans very disgruntled and curlers unable to maintain their tradition of having the winner buy the loser a pint.

    In general, the media reported a lot of negative things about Sochi. I'm sure many believe this to reflect anti-Russian sentiment, and this sentiment could have contributed to the negativity.

    Helsinki might be the wiser choice, unless the ISU prefers Sochi for political or financial reasons.
    Last edited by Japanfan; 04-23-2014 at 06:01 AM.

  2. #82
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    For me if Helsinki are ready willing and able to host this in 2017 than i don't see a reason to give it to Russia,

    Who had 2 worlds and olympics in the last 10 years,

    Or better yet, Offer them 2018, See if they're still interested, Both Nagano and Torino hosted the post Olympic worlds 4 years

    after their Olympics, And if they're still as interested as they are for 2017 that would show they're not looking to politic

  3. #83
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    And people had a big issue with it at the time and now. I'm sure people who are speaking against this for political reasons also feel the same way about the many human rights abuses (labor, environmental, privacy, etc.) that are currently occurring in China.
    So no worlds in US and Britain, thanks to their invasion of Iraq and Afganistan. No picking and choosing on this subject please.

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    So no worlds in US and Britain, thanks to their invasion of Iraq and Afganistan. No picking and choosing on this subject please.
    Let's have Worlds in Israel !!!!!!


    Everyone can stay with me !! XD

  5. #85

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    Quote Originally Posted by Domshabfan View Post
    So no worlds in US and Britain, thanks to their invasion of Iraq and Afganistan. No picking and choosing on this subject please.
    Again, I ask this question. Should we have no standards?

    Your point was addressed in this thread and in the Sochi Olympic boycott thread. The reason why discrimination and human rights concerns are a bigger concern for hosting events is due to the idea of inviting people from the outside to come in. If a country has discriminatory laws against a community/communities and fail to prosecute and even encourage those who violently assault those within said community/communities, then yeah, there's a real concern.

    Also, the idea of functioning democracies and governments v. oligarchies are a real concern.

    Anyway, you can disagree with everything I said. But please answer my points and not just ignore all the arguments raised above by other posters so we can have a real discussion as opposed to one-liners based on lazy analogies please.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  6. #86

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    There was no practice ice during the Olympics. If that doesn't change, I think it is a good reason not to give Sochi Worlds. It was a huge inconvenience to the athletes - some of the ladies from Europe who competed in the team event went home to practice, others flew to Germany.

    I am not opposed to requiring the country that hosts Worlds to uphold a standard of human rights protection, but doubt that is going to happen - especially with China to be hosting worlds.

    Generally I had a bad feeling about Sochi. In part because of the anti-gay law, in part because of the damage the Olympics caused the city and the people kicked out of their homes. And I did find the audience's nationalism a bit much. I've never felt that it was so loud and 'in your face' at other Olympics, but my generally negative perception of Sochi may have heightened that feeling. The judging issues didn't help much, either.

    And the stray dogs being killed broke my heart. I'm sure it has happened in other countries as well - seem to remember it happening in Greece - but I wasn't so aware of it.

    It is true that most countries do some harm in the name of the Olympics, but I've not been so affected by it in the past. The Western media may have played a part in that, as generally it seemed inclined to paint a less than rosy view of Sochi - Canadian media, anyway. In addition to covering all of the above, it highlighted empty seats at events and ridiculously long line-ups, and focused on various details such as the (hypocritical) banning of alcohol - granted, this isn't very important, but it deviated from tradition, leaving some hockey fans very disgruntled and curlers unable to maintain their tradition of having the winner buy the loser a pint.

    In general, the media reported a lot of negative things about Sochi. I'm sure many believe this to reflect anti-Russian sentiment, and this sentiment certainly could have contributed to the negativity.

    Helsinki might be the wiser choice, unless the ISU prefers Sochi for political or financial reasons.

    OTOH, I had no negative perceptions of the Moscow worlds (2005?) and Russia did step up and host when the tsunami and nuclear crisis in Japan prevented it from doing to. That probably counts for some pay-back.
    Last edited by Japanfan; 04-23-2014 at 09:15 AM.

  7. #87

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    [QUOTE=Japanfan;4246277]
    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    There was no practice ice during the Olympics. If that doesn't change, I think it is a good reason not to give Sochi Worlds. It was a huge inconvenience to the athletes - some of the ladies from Europe who competed in the team event went home to practice, others flew to Germany.

    I am not opposed to requiring the country that hosts Worlds to uphold a standard of human rights protection, but doubt that is going to happen - especially with China to be hosting worlds.

    Generally I had a bad feeling about Sochi. In part because of the anti-gay law, in part because of the damage the Olympics caused the city and the people kicked out of their homes. And I did find the audience's nationalism a bit much. I've never felt that it was so loud and 'in your face' at other Olympics, but my generally negative perception of Sochi may have heightened that feeling. The judging issues didn't help much, either.

    And the stray dogs being killed broke my heart. I'm sure it has happened in other countries as well - seem to remember it happening in Greece - but I wasn't so aware of it.

    It is true that most countries do some harm in the name of the Olympics, but I've not been so affected by it in the past. The Western media may have played a part in that, as generally it seemed inclined to paint a less than rosy view of Sochi - Canadian media, anyway. In addition to covering all of the above, it highlighted empty seats at events and ridiculously long line-ups, and focused on various details such as the (hypocritical) banning of alcohol - granted, this isn't very important, but it deviated from tradition, leaving some hockey fans very disgruntled and curlers unable to maintain their tradition of having the winner buy the loser a pint.

    In general, the media reported a lot of negative things about Sochi. I'm sure many believe this to reflect anti-Russian sentiment, and this sentiment certainly could have contributed to the negativity.

    Helsinki might be the wiser choice, unless the ISU prefers Sochi for political or financial reasons.

    OTOH, I had no negative perceptions of the Moscow worlds (2005?) and Russia did step up and host when the tsunami and nuclear crisis in Japan prevented it from doing to. That probably counts for some pay-back.
    It's not unusual for North American media to paint a negative picture of everything Russian. I wonder what kind of picture of North America (particularly the USA) they paint in Russia? The cold war never really ended. It's not like the USA has been a model of virtuousness. There are positive and negative things about every country.

  8. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Or better yet, Offer them 2018, See if they're still interested, Both Nagano and Torino hosted the post Olympic worlds 4 years

    after their Olympics, And if they're still as interested as they are for 2017 that would show they're not looking to politic
    That reminds me how Gailhaguet offered to host Worlds 2013 in Nice, and shift Worlds in London to 2014. I think in this case, the answer of Russian Fed will be the same as Skate Canada's was

  9. #89
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    Wasn't 2013 Worlds already assigned to Canada when Gailhaguet made the suggestion? 2017 has yet to be assigned.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #90

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    Hmm after all the controversy over the Olympics, I have only one word - seriously???
    When you are up to your arse in alligators it is difficult to remember you were only meant to be draining the swamp.

  11. #91
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    Erm...
    Is it a political forum or figure skating forum?
    Sometimes I wonder...
    Nobody invaded anything. The Crimea had a referendum where its citizens voted for joining Russia. But who cares...The USA, the country that practically invaded Iraq, just loves to picture Russia as an evil center.

    The anti-gay law (debatable as it is) does exist but I don't remember any complaints from Olympics. Moreover, the athletes seemed to be pleased by the organization. And nobody is stupid enough to violate an international event on such level. I was there - the level of security was really high.

    The crowd was terrible for many reasons, and I'm not sure it will be much better at Worlds. It happened historically that the biggest part of figure skating audience lives in the north, not south of Russia. Moscow or St.Petersburg would be completely different story.

    But politics and prejudices aside, I vote for Helsinki. This country truly loves figure skating, I love how they organize Finlandia Trophy and, well, it's really easier and cheaper to get there.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Again, I ask this question. Should we have no standards?

    Your point was addressed in this thread and in the Sochi Olympic boycott thread. The reason why discrimination and human rights concerns are a bigger concern for hosting events is due to the idea of inviting people from the outside to come in. If a country has discriminatory laws against a community/communities and fail to prosecute and even encourage those who violently assault those within said community/communities, then yeah, there's a real concern.

    Also, the idea of functioning democracies and governments v. oligarchies are a real concern.
    A case can certainly made that there should be standards, particularly if visitors are vulnerable to violence or mistreatment. But visitors attending sporting events are usually protected from mistreatment to a large extent. Did visitors to the Beijing Olympics suffer due to China's lack of human rights protections?

    And then the question becomes, what should those standards be, specifically?

    At the same time, sports bodies need to consider finances and the advancement of their sport. China wants to advance its figure skating programs and holding a world figure skating championship is one way to generate interest in the sport. Plus, the rise of Chinese skating has made a huge contribution to FS, which is another reason in favour of China hosting worlds.

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Let's have Worlds in Israel !!!!!!


    Everyone can stay with me !! XD
    Let's have it in West Bank.

    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Again, I ask this question. Should we have no standards?

    Your point was addressed in this thread and in the Sochi Olympic boycott thread. The reason why discrimination and human rights concerns are a bigger concern for hosting events is due to the idea of inviting people from the outside to come in. If a country has discriminatory laws against a community/communities and fail to prosecute and even encourage those who violently assault those within said community/communities, then yeah, there's a real concern.
    Firstly, who decides these standard is my questions ? US or EU, or does rest of the world have any say in this matter?. Human rights is a huge issue but should be applicable to everyone, any criminal act should be punished including waging wars on false context which resulted in lose of thousands of lives.

    Also, the idea of functioning democracies and governments v. oligarchies are a real concern.

    Anyway, you can disagree with everything I said. But please answer my points and not just ignore all the arguments raised above by other posters so we can have a real discussion as opposed to one-liners based on lazy analogies please.
    A truth for a person may not the same for another, look at this article as an example (no worlds in US again).
    Last edited by Domshabfan; 04-23-2014 at 09:36 AM.

  14. #94

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    Don't remember any complaints from the Olympics? Read Human Rights Watch's website. They have documentation. Also, in the beginning of the Olympics, four gay activists were arrested which was ignored because of the Olympics.

    Also, the Crimea situation is not as simple as the citizens of Crimea simply voting to secede from Ukraine and join Russia.

    Of course, every country has blood on its hands. However, some countries are much bloodier than others.

    Anyway, why are people so bent out of shape when politics enter a discussion? It's such a big part of everything we do that it's ridiculous to think you can't consider political reasons, especially when picking a country (countries' boundaries are all determined by geography and politics) to host an event where people of all types want to attend.

    Japanfan, the UN and the EU and the IOC and the ISU have no problems dictating standards that member nations should theoretically be held to. That was the biggest point of contention about award Sochi the games. The fact that the Olympic Charter was basically ignored and all for money.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Don't remember any complaints from the Olympics? Read Human Rights Watch's website. They have documentation. Also, in the beginning of the Olympics, four gay activists were arrested which was ignored because of the Olympics.
    Strange, as it was, I used to read athletes' interviews, considering it as a sport event, not political.They seemed content with the organization.
    Gay propoganda is forbidden in Russia, so yes, I can believe about this arrest. Nobody can arrest you for being a gay, but it's not a good idea to organize parades or something. I'm not saying, it's good or bad, just stating the fact.

    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Anyway, why are people so bent out of shape when politics enter a discussion?
    Because, nobody knows for sure what really happens there, including Ukraine events. We can only see the news, and they are sooo different from each other, depending of the country's policy. The only way to be a little closer to the truth is to talk to people who live in that place or actually go there. And you still won't know the whole truth - so yes, I kinda prefer discussing things that are not as full of lie as politics.

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by Japanfan View Post
    There was no practice ice during the Olympics.
    There was a practice rink. I saw video footage of it. Practices in the main rink were limited during the Olympics because it was also the venue for short-track.

    Just as at Worlds, practice times were limited so many skaters chose to leave Sochi until their individual events started (particularly the ice dancers and ladies) so they could get more ice time elsewhere.
    To think that fun is simple fun, while earnest things are earnest, proves all too plain that neither one thou truthfully discernest.

  17. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Japanfan, the UN and the EU and the IOC and the ISU have no problems dictating standards that member nations should theoretically be held to. That was the biggest point of contention about award Sochi the games. The fact that the Olympic Charter was basically ignored and all for money.
    But we are talking about Worlds, not the Olympics. Are there any standards in place that host countries of Worlds should theoretically be held to? If so, what are they?

  18. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Piper View Post
    Erm...
    Is it a political forum or figure skating forum?
    Sometimes I wonder...
    Nobody invaded anything. The Crimea had a referendum where its citizens voted for joining Russia. But who cares...The USA, the country that practically invaded Iraq, just loves to picture Russia as an evil center.
    Just to clarify something. The Crimea at the time of the referendum belonged to the Ukrainian State and, from what I know, the Ukrainian Constitution writes that any change to the territory of Ukraine can be resolved solely by a national referendum. In my understanding of the Crimean referendum, it was not a national consultation of the Ukrainian population.

    Hungarians form the majority population in two districts of Slovakia. Do you think Hungarians living there should be allowed to hold a local referendum and ask the people in those two districts to vote for joining Hungary? Wouldn't that invite people to violate the internationally recognized borders?

  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eladola View Post
    Let's have Worlds in Israel !!!!!!


    Everyone can stay with me !! XD
    Would love to see Worlds come to Israel!

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by VarBar View Post
    Just to clarify something. The Crimea at the time of the referendum belonged to the Ukrainian State and, from what I know, the Ukrainian Constitution writes that any change to the territory of Ukraine can be resolved solely by a national referendum. In my understanding of the Crimean referendum, it was not a national consultation of the Ukrainian population.

    Hungarians form the majority population in two districts of Slovakia. Do you think Hungarians living there should be allowed to hold a local referendum and ask the people in those two districts to vote for joining Hungary? Wouldn't that invite people to violate the internationally recognized borders?

    I seriously believe that in can really quickly turn into offtop, besides my English isn't good enough for political discussions so I'll try to give as short answer as possible.
    The Crimea, despite being a part of Ukraine, has always been an Autonomous Republic. You can argue about the validity of this referendum but it took place and it was based on the decision of this Republic's government and Crimea's citizens. So it's hard to call it an invasion and if you seriously think that Russia plans to invade other territories...Please. It will be the end of Russian economy - it's state is bad enough now.

    Least of all, I fail to see the connection between this situation and organizing a figure skating event.
    Last edited by Piper; 04-23-2014 at 01:01 PM.

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