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  1. #21
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    To each their own but I am sure Kwan or anyone would take an Olympic gold and silver vs only silver and bronze before 5 extra U.S titles. I am sure Heiss could have easily won 9 or more if she wanted to just keep competing at U.S Nationals and not bother with worlds or Olympic anymore, but who would ever bother at that point. Not to mention 5 world titles in a row, as opposed to spread out over almost a decade and only defending the title once. I am not saying Heiss is a better skater or greater champion than Kwan, and I dont think she is even as impactful as Hamill, Fleming, Yamaguchi, or Lynn either but by any objective measure i find her easily the most "decorated" and dominant U.S skater.

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xela M View Post
    I guess we will never see anything like T&D's perfect 6.0's with IJS.
    Actually Davis/White came very close to do that in Olympics.

    9.71-9.75-9.93-10.00-10.00

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by elif View Post
    Actually Davis/White came very close to do that in Olympics.

    9.71-9.75-9.93-10.00-10.00
    If 6.0 was around Davis & White probably would have been given 18 perfect 6.0s. Which is why I am glad it wasnt around, as I dont think the performances would have merited that. I mean head to head against T&D 30 years earlier it is easy to watch and say D&W should win, but for their own time what they did was nowhere near as revolutionary, perfect, or ahead of their time as T&D 30 years ago. There are some who even still question if they were really better than V&M for instance. Plus I find a stocked quality to their dancing, I dont find them true innovators or trend setters but more like winning machines, but maybe that is just me.

  4. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by bardtoob View Post
    I'm thinking all the firsts will continue to be the firsts ... although I know a few equations that may indicate otherwise
    Yeah, I don't get that either. Of course if a record is "first to do something" then that record won't be broken - that goes without saying. I don't find the youngest/oldest records all that interesting, either.

    - I don't see anyone matching Rodnina's records.
    - I don't see another US lady doing what Kwan did.
    - Unless Carolina Kostner decides to extend her career, I think ten consecutive European medals (first achieved by Karl Schäfer, later matched by Brian Joubert) is not something we'll see again, at least not for a long time. Especially in men's skating, with the technical standard being so high that ten years at the top level seems a monumentally difficult task.
    - I doubt that another skater will be able to replicate Yuna Kim's career record of nothing but podium finishes.
    - Nobody will ever do as many triple toes in a program as Elaine Zayak
    - Maybe Aliona Savchenko can join Drobiazko/Vanagas in the five Olympics club. If not, I think they'll remain the only members.

    IJS points records are kind of meant to be broken, and since the ISU is still tinkering with the scoring, I'm not even sure how meaningful those will be over time. Technically, the highest FD score ever is not D/W's but N/K's.

  5. #25
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    I think the U.S will have another dominant skater ala Fleming, Heiss, Yamaguchi, Kwan, at some point. It might not happen as frequently but it will happen again in our lifetime, mark my words.

  6. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by museksk8r View Post
    Kwan has 9 US titles though, which completely shuns Heiss's 4 titles. I'm looking at the overall picture, both domestically and internationally.
    Not to diminish Heiss' record, which is impressive, but she isn't even second in US titles. Janet Lynn won 5 in a row. Overall, Michelle is the most decorated because there were so many more competitions in her era (and because she won so many US titles as well).

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by fracturedleg View Post
    If he could ever muster the motivation to go for it if he wins his 2nd in 2018, I could see Hanyu winning a 3rd in a row in 2022. I believe he has the youth, athletic ability, work ethic, and body type to win an OGM at 27 if he wanted to go for it. I believe he is more likely to go for it than Kim Yu Na would have been, as she was adament she did not want to skate in 2018 even if she had won in 2014.
    Possible of course, but I think highly unlikely. There is simply too much depth and talent in the men's ranks , not to mention the bodily rigors associated with those quads. Hanyu should simply concentrate on continuing to improve his consistency and performance skills as well as maintain his health. If he does that and he also continues to find favour with the judges, he will certainly have a shot.

  8. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by fracturedleg View Post
    To each their own but I am sure Kwan or anyone would take an Olympic gold and silver vs only silver and bronze before 5 extra U.S titles. I am sure Heiss could have easily won 9 or more if she wanted to just keep competing at U.S Nationals and not bother with worlds or Olympic anymore, but who would ever bother at that point. Not to mention 5 world titles in a row, as opposed to spread out over almost a decade and only defending the title once. I am not saying Heiss is a better skater or greater champion than Kwan, and I dont think she is even as impactful as Hamill, Fleming, Yamaguchi, or Lynn either but by any objective measure i find her easily the most "decorated" and dominant U.S skater.
    Perceptions are one thing, while stats in the record book are what they are, regardless of any of our value perceptions. Michelle Kwan is the most decorated U.S. skater in history, an indisputable fact.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by giselle23 View Post
    Not to diminish Heiss' record, which is impressive, but she isn't even second in US titles. Janet Lynn won 5 in a row. Overall, Michelle is the most decorated because there were so many more competitions in her era (and because she won so many US titles as well).
    As the Kim vs Kwan career poll indicates most believe Yu Na Kim to be more "decorated" than Michelle (I presume that is what most take a career poll to be about, not subjective opinions on better skater). Well if Yu Na is more decorated than Michelle just based on her superior Olympic record, than Carol Heiss who has the exact same two Olympic medals as Kim, and 3 more world titles, and was far more dominant at worlds than Michelle even with the same # of titles, is sure as heck more decorated than both Yu Na and Michelle.

    I agree Heiss is clearly the most "decorated" American skater ever, and it isnt even close. National titles is not what determines most decorated. If it were so Dominique Dawes would be the most decorated U.S gymnast ever, and not Shannon Miller, with her 20 or so U.S titles.

  10. #30
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    Then, your understanding of the definition of "most decorated" differs from the one recognized and understood by people in the sport who first used the phrasing to describe how Michelle Kwan has surpassed all other U.S. skaters in the total number of medals won domestically and internationally throughout her skating career.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Then, your understanding of the definition of "most decorated" differs from the one recognized and understood by people in the sport who first used the phrasing to describe how Michelle Kwan has surpassed all other U.S. skaters in the total number of medals won domestically and internationally throughout her skating career.
    Like I said a poll done on this forum indicates most posters on this forum anyway believe Yu Na is more decorated than Michelle. Carol Heiss meanwhile is obviously more decorated than Yu Na, something even a Yu Na uber I wouldnt even try to deny. The same 2 Olympic medals, and 3 more world titles. So add it all up and how could Kwan possibly be more decorated than Heiss. Is winning Olympic silver and bronze vs Olympic gold and silver, and 5 world titles spread over 9 years vs 5 in a row, and winning only 1 time at another major invent of your time (which wasnt around in Heiss's but given her total dominance we can safely assume another 5 titles minimum at) and never skating at another, is more decorated all because you won your own Nationals a few more times.

    I didnt say Heiss is the best U.S skater ever. There are some who probably wouldnt even put her top 10. The best resume though, easily. Kwan would trade her career for Heiss's in a heartbeat, but not her legacy of course.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by aftershocks View Post
    Possible of course, but I think highly unlikely. There is simply too much depth and talent in the men's ranks , not to mention the bodily rigors associated with those quads. Hanyu should simply concentrate on continuing to improve his consistency and performance skills as well as maintain his health. If he does that and he also continues to find favour with the judges, he will certainly have a shot.
    What are you talking about with depth of the mens field. The mens field from 2010 to now has been the worst in history. Chan winning all those titles with so many falls speaks to that, as well as the travesty of Evan Lysacek becoming a world and Olympic Champion. If it continues like that, Hanyu not winning if he doesnt wont have anything to do with depth.

  13. #33
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    There is clearly a great depth of talent in the international men's field, despite how poorly some of the top men performed at the recent Olympics. There are more great young talented male skaters coming up from the junior ranks as well.

    The fact the judges favored Chan when he made a lot of mistakes is another story altogether. One that has been debated endlessly, and unfortunately hasn't done Chan or the men's field any favors in the short or long term. But then, neither does the quad do the men's discipline any favors ultimately. If the judges love of quad and of Hanyu continues, Hanyu may in fact become heir in more ways than one to Patrick Chan.

    As far as your understanding and ways of perceiving the meaning of "most decorated," in regard to Carol Heiss and Michelle Kwan, so be it. Also the designation of "most decorated" for Kwan is being described vs all other U.S. skaters. Of course polls re Yu Na vs MK are certainly very popular and endlessly varied.

  14. #34

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    I don't know why people keep bringing up skaters who did something first. No one can ever beat a person who was first. First means first. This is about records that can be broken and whether they will stand the test of time.
    -Brian
    "Michelle would never be caught with sausage grease staining her Vera Wang." - rfisher

  15. #35
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    Didn't Liashenko go to five Olympics or is my brain playing games on me? How about Peggy Schwartz? Granny?

    ETA Sorry, I was indeed suffering from early Alzheimer's. Granny and Freakin both went four times, Peggy three. Still, quite good achievements though, as single/pairs skaters. Peggy even had a baby in between

  16. #36
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    I have some that havent been mentioned yet:

    -Nobody will win 2 or more world titles in both pairs and singles as the great and almost forgotten Herma Plack Szabo did.
    -Nobody will ever come 2nd in the mens World Championships, even if women are one day allowed to take part again, as the great Madge Syers did.
    -No skater will probably end up with 4 Olympic medals, but less than 4 world medals as Gillis Grafstrom did.
    -No skater will ever win the Olympic gold despite no judge placing them 1st as Magda Julin did.

  17. #37
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    Don't know if anyone mentioned Tara, but I think she was the youngest female to do everything - National, World and Olympic titles. Due to the age rules implemented in 1996 (?) I don't think anyone will break her records (specifically her Worlds record).

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enero View Post
    Don't know if anyone mentioned Tara, but I think she was the youngest female to do everything - National, World and Olympic titles. Due to the age rules implemented in 1996 (?) I don't think anyone will break her records (specifically her Worlds record).
    The age rule would have to be lowered for anyone to have a chance at equalling or surpassing Lipinski's records.

    Quote Originally Posted by orbitz View Post
    Dick Button will always be the last non-European to win the European Championship.

    Tara will always be the youngest OGM.
    So will Canada's Barbara Ann Scott.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Enero View Post
    Don't know if anyone mentioned Tara, but I think she was the youngest female to do everything - National, World and Olympic titles. Due to the age rules implemented in 1996 (?) I don't think anyone will break her records (specifically her Worlds record).
    Oh they could be broken. Had Julia been a week younger and skated well in the individual event she would have already broken it. The slightly altered age rules are now such someone can break her Olympics record anyway. The worlds record not as the rules are now, but those will probably change at some point.

  20. #40
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    (Not important records, but astonishing records.)

    Yuna's records that all international Jr&Sr wins(23) '+' all WR(11) were achieved in not-home competitions would be difficult to be duplicated.

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