View Poll Results: How could healthy 6 triple Kwan do do in Turin

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  • gold

    64 33.33%
  • silver

    61 31.77%
  • bronze

    34 17.71%
  • 4th or lower

    33 17.19%
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  1. #41

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    I remember Cohen's, Slutskaya's, and Suguri's SPs very well. I do not remember Shizuka's at all. I do remember it was just a shortened version of her flat LP she had all season before she smartly changed her routine to Turandot where the music did most of the work in selling that routine.

    Shizuka did have great skating qualities (like speed, skating skills, spins and spirals that could compete against Sasha and Irina in levels and GOE). I think her being able to match Sasha and Irina's elements is what got her the tie. They don't care about performance quality. Irina had little-to-no musical interpretation going on and really lost whatever finesse she had on her elements by that point in her career, and Sasha's skating was a bit smaller and she had a double axel that almost went badly. That could explain the closeness in scores.
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  2. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I remember Cohen's, Slutskaya's, and Suguri's SPs very well. I do not remember Shizuka's at all.
    Well dont you think that in itself is telling, LOL!

  3. #43
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    It always makes me laugh when someone brings up Hughes' "controversial" fourth place in the short. I remember thinking her program sucked and feeling frustrated because no one at the event or online was agreeing with me. There were even a few newspapers (probably NY-based) that thought she was scored harshly and Hughes herself thought she was. Then, boom, Hughes wins the whole thing and then her short program becomes controversial.

  4. #44
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    If Hughes thought her short program in SLC was undermarked then she is delusional. Actually I do remember her comments now, saying she deserved 5.8s and 5.9s, and I remember thinking at the time someone needs to slap that girl aside the face just for saying that. If you live in the U.S it is quite unlikely a newspaper would say she was overmarked in the short. It isnt the American nature to ever refer to themselves as overmarked or being gifted of something. On a forum like this there were probably many saying she was though.

    I dont think Hughes was really overmarked in the short. Her scores were about right and reflected her rather ordinary performance. The scores of many others were just too low, resulting in her too high of a placing.

  5. #45
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    Back on Shizuka and her SP in Turin it is worth noting many felt Shizuka was held up and gifted in the SP of both major events she won. At the 2004 worlds she had mistakes in her SP and her generally lackluster SP and was placed above excellent performances by Ando, Kwan, Kostner, and Sebeysten. Her it is:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cNmpjz5dH-U

    Notice the commentators reaction to her scores and placement, similar to their reaction in Turin. Now she did do a triple lutz-triple toe vs Kwan's triple-double, plus Kwan had that silly time deduction. Meanwhile her artistry and presentation is far better than Miki Ando, even though Ando did an even harder triple lutz-triple loop. So on the surface this would seem to justify her placing of 2nd solidly, even if the rest of the performance was comparably weaker. However both the triple toe of her triple lutz-triple toe and her triple flip were clearly underrotated even if this station didnt point it out as they should have. Her flying camel was very weak, did not even meet the minimum revolutions, and required a .1 or .2 deduction. All the elements other than the footwork sequence, 1 of her 3 spins, and spiral sequence were not well done in this particular performance.

    Shizuka was never an impressive short program skater. The long program and long program alone is where she earned her accolades and titles. The short program she was happy to just survive and stay in with a fighting hope.

  6. #46
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    Kwan was hosed in the 2004 SP even with the layback being iffy and a time deductions. It was a way better program than the one in 2003, and one of her best SP's ever.

    Shizuka was definitely gifted in the 2004 SP though, that was not strong whatsoever. Her camel was a few rev's less than Kwan's layback which I'm guessing she was deducted for. Kwan's scores didn't make sense.

  7. #47
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    Shizuka was probably deducted for her spin, but not for the two underrotated jumps. Oh well it was 6.0 days so I guess this is expected, but I still dont think she deserved 2nd. Just like she didnt deserve her virtual tie with Slutskaya and Cohen in the 2006 Olympics I thought, although atleast that wasnt as bad now that I reflect back on the 2004 worlds as her Olympic short atleast seemed much stronger than her 2004 worlds short.

    I would have had Kwan 2nd in the worlds SP in 2004 behind Cohen.
    Last edited by fracturedleg; 04-17-2014 at 06:50 AM.

  8. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by fracturedleg View Post
    Her scores were about right and reflected her rather ordinary performance. The scores of many others were just too low, resulting in her too high of a placing.
    The first mark was fine, but her second mark was really too high. Only the judge from Denmark gave Butyrskaya a higher second mark.

  9. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    The first mark was fine, but her second mark was really too high. Only the judge from Denmark gave Butyrskaya a higher second mark.
    Not true:

    The Russian judge gave Sarah a 5.5 for the second mark, giving Maria a 5.8.

    The Italian judge gave Sarah a 5.5, Maria a 5.6.

    You're right about the Danish judge, giving Sarah a 5.5, Maria a 5.8.

    The Belarussian judge tied Sarah and Maria on the second mark, but gave Maria 3rd overall, Sarah 5th.

    I suppose one can argue that Sarah was held up in the SP, but the ordinals were all over the place. She was the reigning world bronze medalist, but received nothng higher than a 4th place ordinal. Sarah's ordinals for the SP:

    6 10 4 5 5 5 5 4 4

    With those SP ordinals, I doubt there was even one judge who could have imagined Sarah winning the gold at that point.

    Maria's SP ordinals:

    8 3 6 3 6 3 4 6 6

    Suguri's SP ordinals (probably the most inexplicable):

    4 13 8 11 4 12 9 5 5

    Detailed results: http://winter-olympic-memories.com/h...igure_w_ex.htm
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  10. #50

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    Thanks for the link. I remember the reaction to Kwan's SLC SP marks here as not being very favorable. However, looking at the technical merit marks themselves, I think they are fair for the most part. The only marks that were too high were the German and the Slovakian judges' marks. However, seeing as they boxed themselves in with their high scores for Cohen and Slutskaya, they had to give Kwan those high tech marks to give her a first place ordinal. I think even with the Flip not being perfect, a 5.5-5.7 tech mark for Kwan is fair, and she did sell that performance. It's telling that every judge gave her a 5.9 for presentation.
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  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    Not true: [/url]
    Thanks, Skateboy. I don't know why I remember differently but you're right. I do think her second mark was still too high though.

    Kwan really had no business winning the short. It was a combination of home country scoring and skate order. I'm with those who think Slutskaya was robbed of the gold medal overall but who knows really if she would have skated worse if she were in the lead.

  12. #52

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    I would have scored it as follows:

    1. Kwan (5.6/5.9) 11.5 (I'd have no problem giving Kwan a 5.8 for tech. had she done the flip as she normally did it).
    2. Slutskaya (5.8/5.6) 11.4 (Slutskaya would usually have gotten a 5.7-5.8 for presentation, but that was the flattest and most hesitant clean performance she gave of that SP, and her last combo spin was messy).
    3. Cohen (5.7/5.7) 11.4
    4. Fumie Suguri (5.7/5.6) 11.3
    5. Maria Butyrskaya (5.6/5.5) 11.1

    Then 6 could go to Hughes, Sebestyen, Fontana, or Robinson. Usually, Hughes would be up in the top 6, but she incurred a lot of little deductions for that SP and that flutz is that bad.

    I forgot that the German, Italian, and Canadian judges would have given Kwan the gold medal based on their LP placements. It was another 6-3 split that decided against Kwan.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 04-17-2014 at 07:58 AM.
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  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by skateboy View Post
    I suppose one can argue that Sarah was held up in the SP, but the ordinals were all over the place. She was the reigning world bronze medalist, but received nothng higher than a 4th place ordinal. Sarah's ordinals for the SP:

    6 10 4 5 5 5 5 4 4

    With those SP ordinals, I doubt there was even one judge who could have imagined Sarah winning the gold at that point.

    Maria's SP ordinals:

    8 3 6 3 6 3 4 6 6

    Suguri's SP ordinals (probably the most inexplicable):

    4 13 8 11 4 12 9 5 5

    Detailed results: http://winter-olympic-memories.com/h...igure_w_ex.htm
    And this mess is why I am happy 6.0 is gone. As much as we look back on it favourably, it was not a good system haha.

  14. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    Thanks, Skateboy. I don't know why I remember differently but you're right. I do think her second mark was still too high though.

    Kwan really had no business winning the short. It was a combination of home country scoring and skate order. I'm with those who think Slutskaya was robbed of the gold medal overall but who knows really if she would have skated worse if she were in the lead.
    No problem.

    I just watched the SPs of the top three, hadn't watched in a looooooong time. No question it was one of the best Oly Ladies' SPs ever.

    My pick would've been Irina. She wins for sure in the jump department (clean edges, great spring), plus she did the hardest jump combo (3Lz-2loop), spins were fast, difficult and powerful. Also, her footwork sequence was the most difficult. Spirals just average, presentation not the greatest, but not bad at all.

    I have a hard time between Sasha and Michelle for 2nd and 3rd. I remember being blown away by Sasha's SP at the time. No question she wins the spiral sequence and her presentation was gorgeous. But she had a flutz and the landing of her 2axel was not superb (although she got it done). Beautiful spins. Scott H. claims she was a bit short on a circular sequence. I didn't notice, but I'll believe him.

    Michelle skated great, too. Terrific flow and command of the ice. Spiral really good, spins perfectly fine (if not spectacular). She looks to have flutzed in the combo and the triple flip takeoff wasn't great (but kudos for getting it around). Footwork was easier than Irina's. I agree with Michelle's 5.9s for presentation. 5.5-5.6 seems about right for technical.
    "I hit him with my shoes... if he had given me the medal like I told him to, I wouldn't have had to hit him!" -- 8-year-old Rhoda Penmark in "The Bad Seed"

  15. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by fracturedleg View Post
    First off there are many who think Irina should have won the 2002 Olympics. There are some who think Kwan should have as well. In short there are many who think Hughes should not have. There are alot of people who still say today Hughes should have been nowhere near 4th place in the short program. One can certainly make a good case any of the other top 7 shorts were better than hers. Most people would also say Irina should have won the short program, which would have already given her the gold if the long program stayed the same. Then there are others who say Kwan deserved 2nd in the long program.
    Fans who complain about Irina's SP placement in 2002 are really just saying that Irina should have won by default after Sarah Hughes beat Michelle. Somewhat like Patrick Chan this year, Irina had the gold medal within her grasp but let it go with a sloppy and overwrought performance. You're right; she probably didn't need the 3-3 (though that would have clinched it). I'm sure the judges would have put her first if she had skated like she did at Worlds a month later.

  16. #56

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I remember Cohen's, Slutskaya's, and Suguri's SPs very well. I do not remember Shizuka's at all. I do remember it was just a shortened version of her flat LP she had all season before she smartly changed her routine to Turandot where the music did most of the work in selling that routine.
    Having recently rewatched Arakawa's 2006 Oly SP, it really was a mediocre program for her. First of all the costume was terrible, and the whole program just wasn't very interesting. Shizuka completed the elements successfully, and that was about it. I think she came third in that segment, right?, and I would agree with that, Irina had more speed and pizzazz, and Sasha had a better program choreographically. However, Shizuka certainly rightfully won in the LP.

    As to the hypothetical "Could a clean Michelle have won?"--well, my opinion is yes, absolutely. Shizuka's SP was average and her LP was good but not great. Michelle at her best could most certainly have beaten that effort. Now the question of whether Michelle ever had any real chance of being at her best that season is another issue, and the answer to that is probably no. If it hadn't been for her hip injury--who knows what might have been.

    What I find amazing is that Michelle's career is still so actively remembered, discussed, and debated 8 years after her retirement! It's a credit to all she accomplished.

  17. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Thanks for the link. I remember the reaction to Kwan's SLC SP marks here as not being very favorable. However, looking at the technical merit marks themselves, I think they are fair for the most part. The only marks that were too high were the German and the Slovakian judges' marks. However, seeing as they boxed themselves in with their high scores for Cohen and Slutskaya, they had to give Kwan those high tech marks to give her a first place ordinal. I think even with the Flip not being perfect, a 5.5-5.7 tech mark for Kwan is fair, and she did sell that performance. It's telling that every judge gave her a 5.9 for presentation.
    Well considering giving Kwan a first place ordinal was questionable at best, having to give her a high technical merit to place her first cannot be a valid excuse for the Slovakian judge for instance giving her a 5.9 for elements just to place her 1st. That judges mark alone (needed for a 1st place ordinal for Kwan and needed for her 1st place finish in the short) is already enough to say Irina should have won the short. I agree 5.5-5.7 range for required elements for that performance is about right, but a performance worthy 5.5-5.7 in required elements would never merit beating a clean Slutskaya in the short program around then, regardless of presentation. Her average mark for required elements was also a 5.7, that is what almost every judge gave her, so she was scored above that average range; and I dont think the performance merited straight 5.9s for presentation either. The program while great didnt have the impact of 98 at all, and that was very noticeable, yet it was scored as it was the same.

    It also just looks suspicious when everywhere else even a very clean short by Michelle cant beat Irina in the short for a couple years heading into SLC, yet suddenly a shaky Michelle is scored better than a clean Irina in the short at Olympics in the U.S. Nothing like the Sochi home cooking, but still an obvious pro U.S edge. While I agreed with Cohen's 3rd place in the short it also stands out compared to how she was scored to non Americans throught the year. At Goodwill Games her clean short was behind Suguri, yet here at the Games in the United States they are 3rd and 7th, even though Fumie had a beautiful skate and Sasha didnt close out her footwork sequence and it was very noticeable. At worlds only a month later the scoring was in Fumie's favor again, even without her mistakes Sasha was behind Fumie there. At Trophee de France her clean short was 3rd behind Butyrskaya and Voltchkova. Then the questions of Sarah's SP placing at the Games. It seems the American girls all benefited in part from home location.
    Last edited by fracturedleg; 04-17-2014 at 02:47 PM.

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by clairecloutier View Post
    Having recently rewatched Arakawa's 2006 Oly SP, it really was a mediocre program for her. First of all the costume was terrible, and the whole program just wasn't very interesting. Shizuka completed the elements successfully, and that was about it. I think she came third in that segment, right?, and I would agree with that, Irina had more speed and pizzazz, and Sasha had a better program choreographically. However, Shizuka certainly rightfully won in the LP.
    Not only placements matter under IJS though. Shizuka was placed in a virtual tie with Cohen and Slutskaya after the SP. The question at hand is if that was actually fair. I would say no, and that was probably critical to the overall event.

  19. #59

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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    ... . I'm with those who think Slutskaya was robbed of the gold medal overall but who knows really if she would have skated worse if she were in the lead.
    IMO, Irina's best free skates seem to come when she is in first after the SP, whereas Michelle's best free skates seem to be when she has to come from behind. While I agree that the Oly results would have been different if Irina had been first in the SP, I don't think Irina was robbed of the gold medal overall ... I don't believe that the FS results would be the same if the SP had been scored differently.

    As far as Torino goes, though, I wonder if the other skaters would have performed differently if Kwan was healthy. I can't help think that Michelle's withdrawal had a psychological/mental/emotional effect ... by the time the ladies took the ice, they already knew that the entire event had been a splatfest, with two women (the Canadian ice dancer, and Ms. Zhang) injured. I think the withdrawal might have affected them, just because it would be more difficult to block out the risk of injury by limiting it to the "couples" disciplines.

  20. #60

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    Kwan's average mark for a clean, inspired SP shouldn't be a 5.7. Also, considering her competition and the presentation marks they received (Irina even got 2 5.9s), Kwan definitely deserved 5.9s. Say what you will about it being weird that Kwan won the SP after losing the SP to Irina a few times, but it's not as if Kwan lost 0-9. And Kwan won the SP by 5-4 decision which is consistent with how close they always scored with one another when both skate relatively the same. So Kwan got the benefit of doubt this time. Irina got the benefit of doubt prior for reasons beyond their skating as well. Also, I remember in Skate Canada that season, where both Irina and Kwan made pretty huge errors in the SP, and there Kwan placed second and Irina fourth.
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