View Poll Results: How could healthy 6 triple Kwan do do in Turin

Voters
192. You may not vote on this poll
  • gold

    64 33.33%
  • silver

    61 31.77%
  • bronze

    34 17.71%
  • 4th or lower

    33 17.19%
Page 2 of 12 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast
Results 21 to 40 of 232
  1. #21

    Join Date
    Jul 2007
    Posts
    2,226
    vCash
    5550
    Rep Power
    17487
    Quote Originally Posted by angelflies View Post
    That Slutskaya got 65 for a short program that probably deserved more like 75 and Shizuka a 66 for a short that deserved more like 60 I already knew the fix was in, and mostly in favor of the Japanese team.
    Yeah, the judges are the ones who were fixing things and not you with your outrageous bias. Actually, Irina scored 66.70 and Shizuka 66.03, so Irina was ahead of Shizuka after the short. And what marks (GOE and PCS) do you think Irina and Shizuka should have received to get a 15 point difference between the 2 programs, which had the same base value?

  2. #22
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    79
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by RFOS View Post
    Yeah, the judges are the ones who were fixing things and not you with your outrageous bias. Actually, Irina scored 66.70 and Shizuka 66.03, so Irina was ahead of Shizuka after the short. And what marks (GOE and PCS) do you think Irina and Shizuka should have received to get a 15 point difference between the 2 programs, which had the same base value?
    The 3 jumps were all better, especialy the triple lutz-double toe and triple flip. The 3 spins were all much better. Every element except the spiral sequence was better by Irina that night in fact. In the LP it was just the opposite and Shizuka's elements that day were stronge than Irina's, even the ones she did cleanly, and that was reflected in the scores, but the reverse in the short program did not happen as it should have. As for the presentation or artistry, Irina's program was perfect for her style and was skated with tons of speed, confidence, attack, energy, and great performance and interpretation of the music. The total opposite of her long program. Shizuka's was just a huge bore.

    Even if 15 points is too much there is no doubt whatsoever Shizuka was WAY way overmarked to be tied with Slutskaya and Cohen in the short. Everyone said that at the time too, but it was forgotten after the long program when Shizuka won with clearly the best performance that night, but she had no deficit to make up and this clearly was not right. I laugh outloud at anyone who says she deserved to be within a point of Cohen and Slutskaya in the short program. There is no way her performance in the short was as good as theirs.

    Like I mentioned Slutskaya had already scored over 70 for that short program earlier in the season, and her Olympic skate to it was her best all season, while everyone else was cracking new PBS and benefitting from Olympic inflation she gets docked a bunch of points. Shizuka cracks a huge all time and seasonal short program PB for an average skate. Notice how shocked the commentators are by her score:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRxOVel6Ifg

  3. #23
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    45
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Bronze behind Pasha Cohen. That is if she skated a clean short and clean long with 6 triples though. I dont think she would skate clean so would probably finish 5th or 6th.

  4. #24

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,852
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    40880
    I think Kwan would do better under later incarnations of COP than she would have under the COP that was implemented for Torino. The new versions of COP are a lot more flexible in terms of gaining levels and play better to her strengths.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  5. #25
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    45
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I think Kwan would do better under later incarnations of COP than she would have under the COP that was implemented for Torino. The new versions of COP are a lot more flexible in terms of gaining levels and play better to her strengths.
    Yeah they got rid of the stupid Biellmann fixation. There are other ways to do hard spins than just Biellmanns. The spin rules in general when IJS first came out were stupid anyway. Everyone agrees Lambiel is the best spinner in the world in his prime. Yet he was only 4th in spins points in Turin. Did you know Plushenko outscored Lambiel in spins in Turin, ROTFL! What a joke.

    The Biellmann overuse also was a dishonor to the great Denise Biellmann who did the spin so beautifully, and should only be attempted by those who can live up close to the honor and excellence she did the spin with. Even Irina doesnt do it well enough she should even be doing it any times other than her signature combination spin, and if you look at still shot photos of both Denise and Irina in the midst of the spin her exeuction and positions in it pale so badly compared to Denise. They took something magnificient and incredible by one of the greatest skaters of all time- Denise Biellmann, and turned the legendary move into someting akin to the Phelps vault in gymnastics, something you just cringe over.

  6. #26

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,852
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    40880
    Even though I hate 1 minute long footwork sequences, I would have loved to see what Kwan in her prime could have done with that and with the choreography sequence that is required now.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  7. #27
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    45
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Even though I hate 1 minute long footwork sequences, I would have loved to see what Kwan in her prime could have done with that and with the choreography sequence that is required now.
    Footwork was a big strength for Kwan in her prime. It was one of the reasons she dominated short program and got the highest element marks even with only doing a triple toe so long. Only Slutskaya in her era could rival and sometimes surpass her in footwork. Maybe Suguri comes close too.

  8. #28

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,852
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    40880
    The only time I thought Slutskaya performed better footwork was in 2002 where Kwan used her 1998 footwork. It was more of Kwan choosing to do a lesser FW sequence than her actual ability.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  9. #29
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    45
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    The only time I thought Slutskaya performed better footwork was in 2002 where Kwan used her 1998 footwork. It was more of Kwan choosing to do a lesser FW sequence than her actual ability.
    Well I am not a technical expert on footwork but commentators did mention Irina doing all her footwork on one foot often most years as being a possible edge. Both looked very intricate and well done otherwise, although Kwan's seemed to usually use a more complex pattern around the rink.

  10. #30

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    497
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by olympic View Post
    I think it was obvious that regardless of what Kwan could've done, the top 3 after the SP in Torino would have always been Slutskaya, Arakawa and Cohen due to scores north of 65 points. Kwan's clean SP at '05 Worlds only garnered around 61 points. But the groundwork had also been laid the previous years.
    I don't think that's obvious at all. None of them were doing triple-triples in their short program. She lost points in '05 because of her spiral sequence (level one!) and she had to change the program from Nationals, which was judged under 6.0. If Michelle had really put her mind to constructing an IJS program, I'm sure she could have scored right up there with the top three. And under IJS, it didn't matter if she didn't, as long as she was close in points.

    The premise of the poll is that Michelle was healthy--ie, not suffering from her bad hip--and clean, with 6 triples. The OGM was won with only 5 triples. For Michelle, 5 triples was considered a failure and definitely not clean! I have no doubt that she could have won gold if she had skated like she was capable of doing, and not hindered by a hip injury that eventually required surgery. Similar injuries ended the careers of other skaters such as Alissa Czisny and Evan Lysacek.
    Last edited by giselle23; 04-16-2014 at 10:12 PM.

  11. #31
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    87
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I wouldnt see a gold medal for sure. I saw her short program at some USFSA event that season. It was to the same music, almost the same cuts, as Slutskaya's short. Unless she did something drastic with it before the Games it was clearly inferior to Slutskaya's version. So best I could see her scoring in the short with a clean skate would be something around a 63, which is still higher than she managed at worlds the previous year. Then she would need a 130 or very close to it long program to surpass Shizuka, and even if she had improved greatly under IJS in a year I still dont see her scoring that high with only 6 triples.

    I cant see her skating cleanly and losing to Suguri who didnt even skate cleanly, and when I am sure Kwan would have improved under IJS since the 2005 worlds.

    So the question comes to placements 2nd to 4th and where she would have slotted in. I am surprised bronze has so many votes since Cohen and Slutskaya ended up virtually tied, making bronze almost impossible. It seems she would either have to finish 2nd or 4th. Bronze wouldnt be a real option. Then again with Kwan in the competition along with Kwan, Irina's gross long program performance with total lack of polish and line, in addition to the glaring mistakes, might have looked more evident and lowered her score further.

  12. #32
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    87
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by angelflies View Post
    The 3 jumps were all better, especialy the triple lutz-double toe and triple flip. The 3 spins were all much better. Every element except the spiral sequence was better by Irina that night in fact. In the LP it was just the opposite and Shizuka's elements that day were stronge than Irina's, even the ones she did cleanly, and that was reflected in the scores, but the reverse in the short program did not happen as it should have. As for the presentation or artistry, Irina's program was perfect for her style and was skated with tons of speed, confidence, attack, energy, and great performance and interpretation of the music. The total opposite of her long program. Shizuka's was just a huge bore.

    Even if 15 points is too much there is no doubt whatsoever Shizuka was WAY way overmarked to be tied with Slutskaya and Cohen in the short. Everyone said that at the time too, but it was forgotten after the long program when Shizuka won with clearly the best performance that night, but she had no deficit to make up and this clearly was not right. I laugh outloud at anyone who says she deserved to be within a point of Cohen and Slutskaya in the short program. There is no way her performance in the short was as good as theirs.

    Like I mentioned Slutskaya had already scored over 70 for that short program earlier in the season, and her Olympic skate to it was her best all season, while everyone else was cracking new PBS and benefitting from Olympic inflation she gets docked a bunch of points. Shizuka cracks a huge all time and seasonal short program PB for an average skate. Notice how shocked the commentators are by her score:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRxOVel6Ifg


    Irina was screwed out of the Olympic gold twice, in both 2002 and 2006, in the short program. I am not a fan of her skating but she clearly should have won the short on both occasions, and even if you could make a case for her being only 2nd she was even barely placed ahead of a significantly inferior performance (Cohen in 02, Arakawa in 06) behind her too. That affected her mentally, and is probably why she did a bad long program and didnt win both times. Sotnikova's undeserved Olympic gold was just in a way, as it was Russia's revenge for the two Olympic golds they robbed Irina of in the short program years past.

  13. #33
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Miami, FL, USA
    Posts
    6,938
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by iarispiralllyof View Post
    Right, but remember that at that worlds, the difference between the top 3 sp scores was minimal at best. The only reason the others were scoring north of 65 was that they had competed in more than 1 competition and were getting more used to the system.
    Are you suggesting that Kwan in this scenario would've been competing on the GP circuit?

  14. #34
    Port de bras!!!
    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Location
    Ravenclaw
    Posts
    30,123
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    34921
    Quote Originally Posted by angelflies View Post
    Even in this crappy quality video you can see the absolutely gorgeous flow Shiz had over the ice. Gorgeous.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  15. #35
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    611
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    I find it hard to believe that some think clean Kwan would have come any less than 2nd. If she was clean, with or without spin levels (come on, they would have cost her what, 3-4 points total across both programs if she didn't have upgraded spins?) she would have totally won it all, or at very least been a close 2nd. The judges would have totally rewarded her on GOE and PCS. And she'd have kickass spins and spirals with all the levels she needed there. More than enough to make up for the small spin deficit.

    Kwan sucked in 2005 and was very very far from clean and still placed only a hair off the podium. Let's be honest she would have been fine in Torino.

  16. #36
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    87
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Eliminating the qualifying round which was barely worth any points anyway (and yeah I know she lost the bronze to Kostner by the qualifying round but who cares when either way it is basically a tie for bronze in a messy event, a chasm behind gold and silver, and Kostner was no factor in Turin anyway), Kwan was not very very far from clean at the 2005 worlds. She had a clean short, and one fall and one two footed landing in her otherwise clean long. Very very far from clean are what Arakawa, Suguri, Ando, Rochette, basically everyone except Slutskaya, Cohen, Kostner, and Kwan did at those 2005 worlds, which is why Kwan finished in the top 4.

    Kickass spins? When did Kwan ever have those, even under 6.0 thinking. On a good day she had adequate spins. Who knows what would happen in a year, but the judges were going crazy for her on either GOE or PCS at the 2005 worlds relative to her competitors. Shizuka with a miserable free skate with about 1 clean jump got almost the same PCS as her. That was also doing some boring as heck Romeo and Juliet program wearing some ugly funeral dress, as opposed to her stunning Turandot program. Slutskaya had much higher PCS in the short program when she missed 2 elements and Kwan was clean.

  17. #37
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    87
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Speaking of Shizuka I am surprised there is not any thread up about her recently announced pregnancy yet. I searched Great Skate Debate and I see nothing.

  18. #38
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Canada
    Posts
    611
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    YIKES I 100% meant kickass steps and spirals. Certainly not spins oops.

    Kwan scored 114 for the FS. If she'd landed the sal, that would add an extra 4.5 points approx. If she hadn't two footed then an extra 2 points. Plus her 3-jump combo was shaky so some GOE lost there.

    That alone takes her up to 120.5 plus everyone knows that clean Kwan (or anyone) gets a big PCS boost because mistakes seriously damage the effect of a program. This has always happened under IJS, nothing new there. That program would easily score a minimum of 123 if clean (that's conservative), but hard to tell. It could be way more for PCS ala Slutskaya in 2005. Kwan definitely could throw down a program with that performance level and emotional impact, she did it dozens of times previously. Now compare that with Sasha's 116 and Arakawa's 125 in Torino. It certainly gets Kwan up there.

    That is just with silly things like a Camel Spin level 1 for 1.2 points (like come on Michelle) and low levels. In a year I'm positive she'd have been able to do a little better on the spins.

  19. #39

    Join Date
    Dec 2008
    Posts
    497
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by fracturedleg View Post
    Irina was screwed out of the Olympic gold twice, in both 2002 and 2006, in the short program. I am not a fan of her skating but she clearly should have won the short on both occasions, and even if you could make a case for her being only 2nd she was even barely placed ahead of a significantly inferior performance (Cohen in 02, Arakawa in 06) behind her too. That affected her mentally, and is probably why she did a bad long program and didnt win both times. Sotnikova's undeserved Olympic gold was just in a way, as it was Russia's revenge for the two Olympic golds they robbed Irina of in the short program years past.
    Irina wasn't robbed at either Olympics. She controlled her own destiny in 2002. She needed to do a triple-triple after Sarah Hughes received her big score and Michelle fell and she didn't. In 2006, her short program wasn't that special. Both Sasha and Shizuka were better artistically for whatever that is worth under COP. They had excellent spins and spirals and their jump difficulty was certainly equal to Irina's. I think she was scored fairly--she deserved the high score she got and so did the others. In the long program, she skated very poorly and was lucky to be on the podium, in my opinion. If she had won gold on the basis of a lead in the short program after that disaster, she would be the one with undeserved Olympic gold.

  20. #40
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    87
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    First off there are many who think Irina should have won the 2002 Olympics. There are some who think Kwan should have as well. In short there are many who think Hughes should not have. There are alot of people who still say today Hughes should have been nowhere near 4th place in the short program. One can certainly make a good case any of the other top 7 shorts were better than hers. Most people would also say Irina should have won the short program, which would have already given her the gold if the long program stayed the same. Then there are others who say Kwan deserved 2nd in the long program.

    I also disagree she needed a 3-3 in her LP in 2002 to win. Had she done a clean smooth 6 triple LP like at worlds she would have beaten Hughes in the LP and won the gold very easily. As it was she almost had it, one judge gave Hughes 5.7, 5.8 and Irina 5.8, 5.7, and Irina lost out on the tiebreaker. Just one 5.8 for presentation from that judges would have given it to Irina.

    As for the 2006 Olympic SP, Shizuka's short program was weaker than Irina's and Sasha's both technically and artistically. Her jumps were probably better than Sasha's but weaker than Irina's in that particular performance. Her spins were weaker than both. Her footwork and spirals were good. The overall program was flat, had very little choreography, no real musical interpretation at all, and was just dull. I am talking about the short program, not the long program where the comparisions between the three would be very different, but in no way did Shizuka deserve a virtual tie with the other two in the short. Practically everyone said the day after the short program Shizuka got a huge gift, but forgot all about it after the long program, but I didnt forget.

Page 2 of 12 FirstFirst 1234 ... LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •