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  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by smarts1 View Post
    The thing about Tanja was that she couldn't put it all together when it counted and I suspect it would have been the same in Nagano. Lulu had the gift of peaking when it counted, somehow. Adrenaline worked wonders for her.
    I agree, though I am so so glad that Tanja did win a World medal and a European medal (as well as competing in one Olympic games). Not bad at all.

    Tanja's joy on the ice was so infectious (and almost unmatched)

    I am glad things sort of worked out for her in the end and she's now happily married (?) with Norman Jeschke (who had an up and down career himself but somehow just managed to go to SLC with double-footing Marianna Kautz)

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I'm not sure...I think most of the judges really wanted Lu Chen to win. Because she skated so well, was so beautiful and touching. Even Maria Butyrskaya at Euros was not at that level in term of emotion.
    The Olympics are a very different competition to Euros or Worlds. And as for Tara winning over a clean but cautious Kwan, I'm sure Lu Chen would have won the bronze over a clean Butyrskaya.
    I'm not so sure about that. 6 of the judges in Nagano were content with putting Lu Chen in 4th or 5th for that LP. Only three judges put Lu Chen in 3rd. The problem was that none of Slute, Bute, or Chen got the majority of third place votes and it came down to 4th place votes. Bute came the closest with four 3rd place ordinals.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  3. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I'm not so sure about that. 6 of the judges in Nagano were content with putting Lu Chen in 4th or 5th for that LP. Only three judges put Lu Chen in 3rd. The problem was that none of Slute, Bute, or Chen got the majority of third place votes and it came down to 4th place votes. Bute came the closest with four 3rd place ordinals.
    and that was with Butyrskaya skating horribly and Slutskaya just so so. Butyrskaya had something like 4 mistakes so with just 1 less mistake she easily wins the bronze, or skating with a bit more speed and confidence and still making 4 mistakes or even more she gets the bronze. Irina probably would have been given the bronze easily even for the same long program if she had a better skate in the short. Tanja has less style in her skating than Maria and less athleticsm than Irina, and less political backing than both, so she may have hard a smaller mistake margin on Chen than they did though.

  4. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I'm not sure...I think most of the judges really wanted Lu Chen to win. Because she skated so well, was so beautiful and touching. Even Maria Butyrskaya at Euros was not at that level in term of emotion.
    The Olympics are a very different competition to Euros or Worlds. And as for Tara winning over a clean but cautious Kwan, I'm sure Lu Chen would have won the bronze over a clean Butyrskaya.
    I'm not sure against Tanja, if she had skated like she did at GPF.
    Maria made atleast 4 mistakes and skated super slow, stiff, nervous, and with no artistry at all that night, and still lost the bronze by a tenth of a point. Skating cleanly she would have blown away Chen. She wouldnt have even had to skate cleanly to beat her either. It is obvious you let your fanboy-ism get in the way of reality, and I like Chen way more than Maria.

    As for Tanja her performance at the grand prix final was a fluke. If she repeated that not only would she have easily won the bronze but she might have even challenged for more. Remember she was as close to beating Tara at the final as Kwan at the Games, and I think Tara's grand prix final performance was better than her Olympic one. She never would have repeated that though. Europeans proved she had already peaked.

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    It's crazy that the Japanese judge and the Russian judge put Tanja ahead of Tara at the Final. Tanja's skate was enjoyable in that she pulled it off, but that program was nothing impressive, parts of it were wobbly, and her actual skating was only ok outside her huge triple Lutzes.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    It's crazy that the Japanese judge and the Russian judge put Tanja ahead of Tara at the Final. Tanja's skate was enjoyable in that she pulled it off, but that program was nothing impressive, parts of it were wobbly, and her actual skating was only ok outside her huge triple Lutzes.
    Tanja jumps alot higher than Tara, and she skates like a lady with a more mature presentation, even if her program and style isnt everyones cup of tea. I can see how she took a couple judges off Tara. Tara's skating was not as loved by most people as the judges anyway. Many are still upset she won the 98 Olympic gold, and even the 97 world title.

  7. #27
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    With everyone skating their best in Nagano the final results would be:

    1. Kwan
    2. Slutskaya
    3. Lipinski
    4. Butyrskaya
    5. Szewcenko
    6. Bobek
    7. Hubert or Chen

    Since Slutskaya, Butyrskaya, and Bobek all underperformed the bronze was possible for Szewcenko, but she wasn't as strong a competitor as the great Chen Lu, so I doubt she would have put it all together to take it.

  8. #28
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    Tanja would win the bronze easily with her grand prix final performance. That is probably the only performance she gave all season good enough for it though. Maybe her Nations Cup skate would too. Her NHK skate probably not, and her Europeans skate for sure not. So it depends which Tanja would show up that day.

    I don't think she could do better than bronze. Michelle and Tara were superior and more popular with judges. The only skaters of the potential Nagano field with a chance at more than bronze were Bobek and maybe Butyrskaya, but that would probably only be if Kwan and Lipinski were a little off, and didn't skate as great as they did.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by briancoogaert View Post
    I'm sure Lu Chen would have won the bronze over a clean Butyrskaya
    Maria had 5 mistakes, and her overall skating quality and performance level that day was weak, and still lost the bronze by .1 This is the most sure I have seen someone of something so wrong.

    A clean Maria is way better than a clean Tanja btw.

  10. #30

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    Even though Chen's performance was full of technical flaws, I'm glad she won the bronze with it emotionally. Tanja's GPF skate was really boring to me.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Even though Chen's performance was full of technical flaws, I'm glad she won the bronze with it emotionally. Tanja's GPF skate was really boring to me.
    And very overscored. It was a great moment and I was super happy for her, but there is no way in hell she deserved to be as close to beating Tara as Kwan in Nagano. I thought Tara's skate at that event was phenomenal, on par or maybe even slightly better than Nagano. Tanja's jumps didn't all look totally clean even there with some minor two foots or underrotations. I did think she deserved 2nd, but her skate wasn't even that much better than Maria who just had slightly more glaring jump problems, and skated with much less attack and verve than Tanja or Tara there, but stood up the same number of triples, and had a better choreographed program skated with more style and class. Not to mention has a real lutz, and much better spins than Tanja (Tara also has much better spins).

    Maria's GPF skate which handily lost to Tanja there would have probably even easily won her the Olympic bronze though, which shows Tanja had it well within her capacity potentially, but still somehow she isn't someone I would trust to deliver in the big moment and do it unlike Chen who is a proven champion and competitor. Under the thinking of 6.0 Chen's skate wasn't even that flawed technically in Nagano btw. The judges would only care about her minor step out of the triple flip, and her badly underrotated triple toe-triple toe try. It shows how ridiculous 6.0 was in some ways, just as IJS has its major flaws in different ways. She still attempted more jump content than everyone but Tara (including Michelle) and made fewer obvious mistakes under 6.0 thinking than anyone but Michelle, Tara, and Malinina. Under IJS thinking it would be a technical disaster but 6.0 was a whole other world.

    Tanja though would have been the only skater possibly an even bigger emotional favorite than Chen, which probably would have been to her benefit with the Nagano judges if she skated well. Maybe people forget her story since it was so long ago, but she was coming back from a major illness that took her out of skating a long time, and was even thought to be potentially life threatening at one point. I think that also explains some of her generous scores at times that season, like her bizarre near win at this event. It is so sad this was nearly the end for her as more illnesses and injuries would soon pop up again.

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by judgejudy27 View Post
    Under the thinking of 6.0 Chen's skate wasn't even that flawed technically in Nagano btw. The judges would only care about her minor step out of the triple flip, and her badly underrotated triple toe-triple toe try. It shows how ridiculous 6.0 was in some ways, just as IJS has its major flaws in different ways. She still attempted more jump content than everyone but Tara (including Michelle) and made fewer obvious mistakes under 6.0 thinking than anyone but Michelle, Tara, and Malinina. Under IJS thinking it would be a technical disaster but 6.0 was a whole other world..
    'Thinking' maybe, rules definitely not.

    Under 6.0, double-footed jumps shouldn't have counted at all. And high quality doubles should have been worth more than poor quality triples.

  13. #33
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    'Thinking' maybe, rules definitely not.

    Under 6.0, double-footed jumps shouldn't have counted at all. And high quality doubles should have been worth more than poor quality triples.
    You live in a fantasy world. You expect 6.0 to be judged as if it were COP. Who cares about rules when we all know judges only give a shit about 5% of the rules. Only the most important rules (like < jumps fall into today, but not then) matter to them. Underrotated jumps meant nothing in 6.0, and only began to matter under IJS. If they did Surya Bonaly would have 0 world medals today. Only if you underrotated jumps by more than 60% of a rotation did the judges do or think anything.

  14. #34
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    Quote Originally Posted by sylvestercat View Post
    You live in a fantasy world. You expect 6.0 to be judged as if it were COP. Who cares about rules when we all know judges only give a shit about 5% of the rules. Only the most important rules (like < jumps fall into today, but not then) matter to them. Underrotated jumps meant nothing in 6.0, and only began to matter under IJS. If they did Surya Bonaly would have 0 world medals today. Only if you underrotated jumps by more than 60% of a rotation did the judges do or think anything.
    I didn't expect anything. I simply stated what the rules were back then.

    I know very well that the judges largely didn't follow them back then, even more so than now, because the lack of an actual judging system meant it was impossible to factor all of the different requirements in your head, let alone rank the skaters afterwards, considering the ordinals system (unless you can predict the future, how do you know how much space to leave between various skaters?).

    I don't think that the judges cared about under-rotated jumps, even if they were under-rotated more than 60%. Look at Yukina Ota's Junior Worlds victory, as one example. The cheats were massive and IIRC, pretty much every single triple jump she landed was massively under-rotated. Nobody seemed to have noticed.

    Under-rotated jumps continue to be ignored today, unless the judges see the < or << signs (and sometimes even then). I see plenty of clearly hooked landings, with a loss of speed and flow on the landing, indicating a cheat, that don't have the GOE reduced by any of the judges.

  15. #35
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    At some points under 6.0 it was so bad you might as well just do a double jump, do a quick full rotation three turn on the ice and smile. Judges would count it as the same as a triple anyway. Most of Sarah Hughes's triples weren't even fully rotated doubles. A half turn or greater pre rotation, the jump of less than 2 rotations, a three quarter or more cheat at the end, and stick the leg out, voila.

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