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  1. #81
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    Quote Originally Posted by annabrown View Post
    People always say that but what evidence is there a clean Cohen would usually beat a clean Kwan or clean Slutskaya for instance. I think it is mostly her fans delusions other than reality.
    2006 Olympic SP is one piece of evidence.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

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  2. #82
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    2006 Olympic SP is one piece of evidence.
    You mean a win by 0.03 over Slutskaya when lucking out to skate last, with Kwan and Asada not even skating. Yeah that is foolproof evidence a clean Cohen is unbeatable, LOL! That would only prove if both Irina and Sasha skate their best in the LP that Irina would win for sure since she would have atleast one 3-3 in the LP at her best and Sasha wouldnt, and even in the short doing the same jumps they were tied. Shizuka coming within a point proves in the LP at her hypothetical best she would win over Sasha too considering she would have the tougher jumps in the LP if she were skating her best.

    What about 2002 Worlds SP, 2003 Worlds qualifying round. Clean Sasha was placed only 3rd in both. Kwan had a mistake in both programs and even still took 1st. Elena freaking Sokolova has even beaten a clean Sasha Cohen more than once, Cup of Russia 2000 and Worlds qualifying round 2003. 2003, 2004, 2005 U.S nationals Kwan was given 6.0s which means even clean Sasha had no chance. 2005 worlds she had no chance to beat Irina, 2003 worlds she had no chance to beat Kwan. Doesnt sound unbeatable to me.

  3. #83
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    Worlds SP that she lost with the Robin Lake LP? Sasha Cohen won so many SPs in her career it's not even funny. Yet you insist she wasn't a thread for gold if clean. She just never put out a clean LP.

    And to consider what she did win in her career even despite ever-so-flawed free skates, you can't be serious.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  4. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Worlds SP that she lost with the Robin Lake LP? Sasha Cohen won so many SPs in her career it's not even funny. Yet you insist she wasn't a thread for gold if clean. She just never put out a clean LP.

    And to consider what she did win in her career even despite ever-so-flawed free skates, you can't be serious.
    Kwan and Slutskaya have won many more short programs than Sasha in her career. Kwan has won 5 world or olympic short programs. Irina won the short program of 8 total world, olympic, or grand prix finals from 2000-2006, and was ahead of the eventual winner after the short of 3 others (2002 Olympics, 2000 worlds, 2006 olympics). Sasha only won the short program at her own Nationals three times, only twice when Kwan competed (once when she fell on a simple triple toe). So good for Sasha winning a few short programs, but even that doesnt put her ahead.

    I didnt say she wasnt a gold contender if she went clean and others made mistakes, but she wasnt unbeatable if she went clean, like her ardent fans potray. Now Patrick Chan is and always was unbeatable if he went clean. And therein lies the difference to Cohen and why a thread comparing them is stupid to begin with.

    Even had Sasha skated cleanly all the time the only events she would have won are the 2004 worlds (maybe), 2006 Olympics, and 2006 worlds, and the 2006 Olympics only due to others mistakes and the absences, and 2006 worlds in a joke of a field. She might still have only 1 U.S title.

    Now had king Patrick skated cleanly all the time he would have won the 2009 worlds, 2010 Olympics, 2010 worlds, 2011 worlds, all 7 world and Olympic titles from 2009-2014 Olympics in fact. No comparision to Cohen who does not have his skill set.

  5. #85
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    Quote Originally Posted by annabrown View Post
    Kwan and Slutskaya have won many more short programs than Sasha in her career.
    And how is this relevant?

    Quote Originally Posted by annabrown View Post
    I didnt say she wasnt a gold contender if she went clean and others made mistakes, but she wasnt unbeatable if she went clean, like her ardent fans potray. Now Patrick Chan is and always was unbeatable if he went clean. And therein lies the difference to Cohen and why a thread comparing them is stupid to begin with.
    I would say there was a sweet spot in her career when the judges would have given it to her had she gone clean, it would have been that stunning. However, I do agree that this thread is stupid and Cohen cannot be compared with Chan. Chan could be unbeatable with just a few minor mistakes and Cohen never had that kind of cushion.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  6. #86
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    In 2004 a substandard Cohen got three ordinals in her FS from a clean Arakawa, clean for that time, since under-rotation calls were judge-dependent and rolled into the tech mark, as were flutzes and lips. The writing was already on the wall when they gave the SP to Cohen.

    Cohen wasn't going to win in 2005: that was destined for Slutakaya in Moscow after her heroic comeback, as long as Slutskaya skated decently.

    US Nationals judges might have been willing to go with Cohen one year, if she could have pulled off a clean FS, but, on the whole, international judges rewarded Cohen as much as Kwan in the last few years of Kwan's career.
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  7. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    Kwan and Slutskaya have won many more short programs than Sasha in her career.
    It is relevant since I was responding to someone who said Sasha was unbeatable if she went clean. And there is nothing that shows this. Not her so called short program dominance which doesnt exist as Kwan and Slutskaya have won many more short programs in their career than she has. Winning an Olympic SP by 0.03 over someone who is capable of much harder jumper in the LP than you, and with Michelle Kwan not even competing, isnt proof of this, only that she is a threat if she goes clean which nobody was denying. Unbeatable, or cant be touched, umm no. That would be Chan.

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    In 2004 a substandard Cohen got three ordinals in her FS from a clean Arakawa, clean for that time, since under-rotation calls were judge-dependent and rolled into the tech mark, as were flutzes and lips. The writing was already on the wall when they gave the SP to Cohen.

    Cohen wasn't going to win in 2005: that was destined for Slutakaya in Moscow after her heroic comeback, as long as Slutskaya skated decently.

    US Nationals judges might have been willing to go with Cohen one year, if she could have pulled off a clean FS, but, on the whole, international judges rewarded Cohen as much as Kwan in the last few years of Kwan's career.
    Yup. Exactly.

    Quote Originally Posted by annabrown View Post
    It is relevant since I was responding to someone who said Sasha was unbeatable if she went clean. And there is nothing that shows this.
    That's strange. It looks to me as if you were responding to my post. And yes, there was a point of Sasha's career and quite a few competitions where all she had to do was to be clean to win.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  9. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    In 2004 a substandard Cohen got three ordinals in her FS from a clean Arakawa, clean for that time, since under-rotation calls were judge-dependent and rolled into the tech mark, as were flutzes and lips. The writing was already on the wall when they gave the SP to Cohen.

    Cohen wasn't going to win in 2005: that was destined for Slutakaya in Moscow after her heroic comeback, as long as Slutskaya skated decently.

    US Nationals judges might have been willing to go with Cohen one year, if she could have pulled off a clean FS, but, on the whole, international judges rewarded Cohen as much as Kwan in the last few years of Kwan's career.
    I agree with this, but basically that just shows Sasha was only capable of winning a few more events had she been more consistent. She was never going to dominate or be a world beater. She just wasnt good enough. She wasnt a female Chan.

    People say oh it is so amazing Sasha could be 2nd to 4th with 1 or 2 mistakes. Well Patrick can win events and even big events with 4 or 5 big mistakes and has many times, so what does that say about him and how the judges view him then. Just look at the 2013 worlds. Patrick outright missed over half the jumps in his long program, either falling, practically falling, popping and still stepping out of, etc...and still won gold over Denis Ten who skated two clean and beautiful programs, and also has great artistry, great skating skills, big jumps, and strong spins. Patrick is a god.

  10. #90
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    Wait, are you a Chan uber offended by the Cohen comparison? Is this what's happening?
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  11. #91
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    I am a Chan fan, wouldnt say uber. Basically the only big events in Sasha's whole career she would have won had everyone hit and been at their best were 2004 worlds and 2006 worlds, and one of those had a field on par with the Nebelhorn trophy. She couldnt even win her own Nationals over a clean Kwan, other than 2006 and maybe 2005. How can you dominate the world scene with everyone hitting, when you cant even dominate in your own country.

  12. #92
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    How do you know she wouldn't have won over a clean Kwan, has she herself gone clean? Is there some kind of alternate universe where this actually happened? How can you say any of this with such certainty? We do know for certain, however, that a very flawed LP skater like Sasha had a very successful career. You can only say it would have been more successful had she been able to put out clean free skates, that's logical.
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  13. #93
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    How do you know she wouldn't have won over a clean Kwan, has she herself gone clean? Is there some kind of alternate universe where this actually happened? How can you say any of this with such certainty? We do know for certain, however, that a very flawed LP skater like Sasha had a very successful career. You can only say it would have been more successful had she been able to put out clean free skates, that's logical.
    Well Kwan got 6.0s at the 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 Nationals. This indicates even clean Cohen not winning. You dont beat someone who gets perfect 6.0s. I can only think of one time ever someone got 6.0s and lost and that was Kwan herself taking down perfect 6.0s Chen at the 96 worlds.

    Plus Kwan was worshipped as some sort of goddess at Nationals so it was never really a fair fight. It would take someone who was way better than her to beat her (eg-maybe a female Chan skating cleanly). Someone who was just at the same sort of level or arguably a bit better like Cohen from 2002-2004 would not be able to do it just due to the enormous swell of love and support for the legend Kwan in the U.S. Even if internationally it would be close and Cohen possibly being able to win, Nationals was a different ball game between the two.

    Just like facing Irina at worlds in Moscow in 2005 after her emotional comeback from illness that almost killed her wasnt ever a fair fight although the way Irina skated her LP there she deserved to win anyway.

  14. #94

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    If Kwan's 2005 Nationals SP is any indication, she certainly was still in the mix to win her 9th National title. That sort of performance was classic Kwan.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  15. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by annabrown View Post
    Well Kwan got 6.0s at the 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 Nationals. This indicates even clean Cohen not winning. You dont beat someone who gets perfect 6.0s. I can only think of one time ever someone got 6.0s and lost and that was Kwan herself taking down perfect 6.0s Chen at the 96 worlds.
    And you know that a clean Cohen wouldn't have gotten more 6.0? How?
    "Nature is a damp, inconvenient sort of place where birds and animals wander about uncooked."

    from Speedy Death

  16. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by IceAlisa View Post
    And you know that a clean Cohen wouldn't have gotten more 6.0? How?
    Of course it is possible, it is just very rare to see a skater who gets multiple 6.0s losing. It doesnt happen hardly ever in the sport. Plus as I said Kwan was a huge emotional favorite at Nationals so it would be hard for someone who even at her level as a skater, which Kwan probably was from 2002-2005 (or atleast 2003 onwards) to beat her. You probably almost had to TKO Kwan. Just look at the perfect 6.0s Kwan even got for her boring and stripped down Bolero at the 2005 Nationals with the doubled 2nd triple lutz. She even looked peeved at the end, and said afterwords her skate kind of sucked, but she got 6.0s. There was a huge partiality to Kwan at Nationals by then that made it even harder to beat her than her excellent skating alone would have otherwise. It wasnt the same as facing Kwan outside the U.S or outside Nationals. The judges almost gave her a 5 metre head start in a 100 metre dash.

    I love Michelle but I am not blind to the obvious that were a huge favortism to her in general at Nationals. She has something like 70 perfect 6.0s at Nationals and even as great as she is, she isnt the revolutionary of T&D from 82-84. Nobody in skating history in any discipline is. That is an unbelievable number, something she couldnt dream to get at worlds over her career, and kind of sums up the over the top Kwan lovefest that is Nationals. As it turns out she did deserve her 9 titles based on the performances given, but I could see her having won all 9 even if that possibly wasnt the case.

  17. #97
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    Patrick would be hands down the best mens skater ever today if he were totally consistent for the past 6 years. It is hard for anyone to compare to atleast his "potential" ability. Sasha also rates very highly in potential ability, aside from her consistency issues, just not as high as him.

  18. #98

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    If we had to compare Chan to Cohen, I would say Chan is all substance (in the blade and skating skills) and little style (although he's worked on it and actually puts forth effort). Cohen was a lot of style but her substance (in terms of blade work) could have been better (although I won't exaggerate and say she was totally deficient in that area).
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  19. #99
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    If we had to compare Chan to Cohen, I would say Chan is all substance (in the blade and skating skills) and little style (although he's worked on it and actually puts forth effort). Cohen was a lot of style but her substance (in terms of blade work) could have been better (although I won't exaggerate and say she was totally deficient in that area).
    Substance beats style. That is why he is dominant and she isnt.

  20. #100
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    Quote Originally Posted by annabrown View Post
    I can only think of one time ever someone got 6.0s and lost and that was Kwan herself taking down perfect 6.0s Chen at the 96 worlds.
    Nope. Many skaters have earned perfect marks and lost. K/O - 1998 Olympics, L/A - 2002 Olympics, Brian Orser in 1988, Torvil and Dean in 1994 Olympics, Roz Sumners in 1984 Olympics, Petrenko 1994 Olympics, Candelaro 1998 Olympics. Those are just at the top of my head and only focusing on Olympics. I'm sure there are many more.

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