Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast
Results 61 to 80 of 119
  1. #61
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    166
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Winning Olympic silver with 2 falls, over skaters who skated clean?
    Huh, who on earth skated clean? Turin was a splatfest. The best person she beat who sort of went clean was Fumie Sugurizzzzz and her Boremaninoff program which had only 5 triples. Slutskaya was a total mess with a huge splat, a major doubled jump, 2 or 3 shaky landings, lost levels, and still barely lost to Cohen who skated her absolute best ever outside those 2 mistakes. Cohen's 2nd miss wasnt scored as a fall so in the judges eyes she didnt even really fall twice btw.

    I see no evidence the judges saw Cohen with any mistake cushion, over someone who is actually any good. In fact the signs from the judges to me point that if Arakawa, Slutskaya, Kwan (under 6.0, probably not IJS), and young Asada skated their best they would beat Cohen even at her best. So for someone who thinks very highly of Cohen's skill set (which I dont) I could see how they feel she is underrated.
    Last edited by butyrskafanatic; 04-15-2014 at 06:51 PM.

  2. #62

    Join Date
    May 2002
    Posts
    4,318
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Huh? Sochi?

    Joannie Rochette?

    The fact that Cohen was able to compete with the likes of Slutskaya and Arakawa (who she often beat) who had bigger, better, and harder jumps and better skating skills is a definite proof of her being favored.

  3. #63
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    166
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    Huh? Sochi?

    Joannie Rochette?
    Rochette didnt skate cleanly in either program in Turin, and her short program was bad and scored mid 50 points, leaving her no chance of a medal. Her long was actually not even that great with a doubled jump and lots of shaky landings, one she hopped around out of, and she would have taken 2nd in the long with 1 more triple. This is also when Joannie was a relative nobody who had finished 11th at the previous years worlds, and not considered a top skater who had proven anything at the international level, and wasnt skating in the final flight due to her bad short program.

  4. #64
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2013
    Posts
    166
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by shine View Post
    The fact that Cohen was able to compete with the likes of Slutskaya and Arakawa (who she often beat) who had bigger, better, and harder jumps and better skating skills is a definite proof of her being favored.
    Well she had more spark, flair, and on ice personality than Shizuka, and far more line, grace, polish, and style than Slutskaya. She had the best spins and spirals in the world. Should that count for nothing. Anyway the times she beat them they always had mistakes. Can you think of a single time they were ever robbed against her. Do you really think Slutskaya deserved silver for that rubbish skate she did in Turin which had more mistakes than Cohen, an awful choreographed program, looked tired and ready to pass out through the last half of it, and where even the jumps and spins she did were poor quality that night. Shizuka was a hit or bomb skater, when she hit like 2004 worlds and 2006 Olympics she beat Cohen, when she bombed she came 9th or 10th. Cohen always limited her mistakes to 1 or 2 thus didnt ever finish 9th or 10th.

    Slutskaya in fact lost only twice to Cohen her whole career- 2002 grand prix final and 2006 Olympics, and she skated just AWFUL at both, so she has absolutely nothing to complain about in how she is scored vs Cohen over the years.

  5. #65
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    752
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by butyrskafanatic View Post
    Well she had more spark, flair, and on ice personality than Shizuka, and far more line, grace, polish, and style than Slutskaya. She had the best spins and spirals in the world.
    I don't think she had the best spiral at all. Her change of edge wasn't very impressive (especially relative to someone like Shizuka) and the pattern she made on the ice was a little on the wimpy side (especially relative to Shizuka again). I think there's more to a spiral than how high you can lift up your free leg in the air.

  6. #66

    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Posts
    227
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    637
    Quote Originally Posted by rickmercer View Post
    Sasha though is a more soulful skater who skates with more elegance, beauty, and wonderful positions than Patrick. Much better interpretation of music and performing skills than him too.
    This has nothing to do with skating skills. You misunderstand what that concept means. Compared to leading skaters of her time, Cohen had very weak blade control, no speed, no power, and poor control. This was especially obvious watching her live, where she was notably slower than others. From the ankle up, she was beautiful, from the ankle down she was on flats half the time.
    Nadya

  7. #67

    Join Date
    Mar 2002
    Posts
    4,353
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    3933
    I thought at the height of her career, a clean Cohen would probably be the favorite to win. So in that sense, the judges did think very highly of her, she just never skated clean. She was frequently first in the SP, so that proves that given roughly equal elements, judges were willing to put her 1st. I would not say she had even a 1 jump advantage over Kwan/Slute/Arawkawa, just a good chance to win if all things were equal. Since she always made more mistakes than the eventual winner at the biggest events, we can't say for sure that she would have won overall.

    But no, she's not Patrick Chan, he is a master at skating skills compared to his peers, and that is precisely where Sasha was weak. Some of Patrick's wins indicate that despite making several more mistakes, the judges thought his skating was so superior they still gave him the win. They did not think that way about Sasha (nor really anyone else that I can remember).

  8. #68
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Dec 2012
    Posts
    692
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by FunnyBut View Post
    I thought at the height of her career, a clean Cohen would probably be the favorite to win. So in that sense, the judges did think very highly of her, she just never skated clean. She was frequently first in the SP, so that proves that given roughly equal elements, judges were willing to put her 1st. I would not say she had even a 1 jump advantage over Kwan/Slute/Arawkawa, just a good chance to win if all things were equal. Since she always made more mistakes than the eventual winner at the biggest events, we can't say for sure that she would have won overall.

    But no, she's not Patrick Chan, he is a master at skating skills compared to his peers, and that is precisely where Sasha was weak. Some of Patrick's wins indicate that despite making several more mistakes, the judges thought his skating was so superior they still gave him the win. They did not think that way about Sasha (nor really anyone else that I can remember).
    I would say the judges would have put a clean Cohen over a clean Kwan at U.S Nationals in 2003, 2004, 2005, so yes in the U.S she became the favorite to win.

    At worlds and Olympics I am not as sure. She would have beaten Kwan for the gold at the 2003 worlds if she did the triple lutz-triple toe and 7 triples to Kwan's 6 but if she did the same jumps as Kwan she would lose to Kwan, and possibly even Sokolova since she did in qualifying. At the 2004 worlds she probably would have been gifted the gold over Shizuka had she gone clean, especialy when Kwan was nearly gifted the LP over Shizuka with only 5 triples anyway. At the 2005 worlds she was never beating Slutskaya if both were clean, nobody was. That event was Irina's party and nobody else was invited. At the 2006 Olympics I dont think she would have won if Irina or Shizuka skated cleanly with 6 or 7 triples, especialy if either did a triple-triple. So the only world and Olympic events that were obviously hers to lose were 2004 and 2006 worlds. Others like the 2003 worlds and 2006 Olympics she could have won but only through doing harder jumps than the favorite (2003 worlds) or others mistakes (2006 Olympics).

  9. #69
    I <3 Kozuka
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Vancouver/Seattle
    Posts
    19,213
    vCash
    730
    Rep Power
    44756
    I don't think Cohen was a favorite at USN in 2003 or 2004. Maybe she had a shot going into 2005 USN, after beating Kwan at 2004 Worlds.

    Internationally, at 2003,Worlds, after coming in 3rd in her quality, with Suguri coasting to.the top of her much weaker quality group because of Slutskaya's absence, she was effectively buried. It's a lot of ifs for.Cohen to have two seven-triple clean programs and to be higher than 4th in the SP.

    Kwan was over marked in the SP in 2004, but still beat Cohen in the FS. The judges were ready for both Kwan and Cohen to beat Awakawa in Dortmund: with relatively weak skates, Cohen got three first place ordinals, and then Kwan took those and one more. Kwan was buried in the qualis, finishing behind Arakawa and Ando, and then she was in 4th in the SP, and she would have needed a lot of help and a very poor skate from Arakawa to win that title. she still beat Cohen in the FS.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  10. #70
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    72
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by michiruwater View Post
    Seconded.

    All Sasha had to do to win pretty much anything ever was go clean. Just once. The whole community was willing to hand her all the medals, and she just never put it together.
    I totally agree. It was so frustrating because she could have won just about any competition if only she had skated cleanly. Her presence on ice was amazing, her jumps were not high but her rotations were very fast = powerful (when landed cleanly) and her spirals were striking. IMO, Sasha lost because of her own demise, not because the others were better.

  11. #71
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Posts
    348
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by nguyhm View Post
    I totally agree. It was so frustrating because she could have won just about any competition if only she had skated cleanly. Her presence on ice was amazing, her jumps were not high but her rotations were very fast = powerful (when landed cleanly) and her spirals were striking. IMO, Sasha lost because of her own demise, not because the others were better.
    I feel the opposite - she got a lot of air on her jumps and her feet were neat in the air, but very powerful is never how I'd describe Sasha. She didn't have enough edge strength to secure what power she managed in the air during the landing to have a powerful run out. Her spirals were striking as far as amplitude, as near vertical splits tend to be striking, but her ice coverage and edge depth were not.

  12. #72
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,204
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by TheIronLady View Post
    Her spiral was so undeniable, so perfect and magical in all respects except the strength as reflected in the ice coverage. Slutskaya got amazing speed holding a spiral from start to finish, and Sasha did not. It's one of the trade offs with strength vs flexibility.
    And Kwan had the best balance of both

    And VIETgrlTerifa beats me to it
    Last edited by Marco; 04-16-2014 at 03:39 AM.

  13. #73
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,204
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by gk_891 View Post
    Her change of edge wasn't very impressive
    nor was it very pronounced - it would almost look like she was on a flat and travelling close to a straight line both before and after, and with very little lean either way.

  14. #74
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,204
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    I don't think Cohen was a favorite at USN in 2003 or 2004. Maybe she had a shot going into 2005 USN, after beating Kwan at 2004 Worlds.
    I think the US judges were ready to give Cohen the US title in 2004, hence the lead in the short and the 6.0 in the long despite falling. Who knew Kwan had that Tosca performance left in her?!

    Seeing Kwan's lesser participation since 2002 and losing her standing internationally at 2004 Worlds, the US judges were probably even more ready to give Cohen a lift. You just know it's gone for Kwan when she can't even win a cheesefest.

    Kwan was over marked in the SP in 2004, but still beat Cohen in the FS.
    If anything, I think she was way under-marked being placed behind Arakawa and Ando in the short when Arakawa cheated the 3/3 and Ando was meh.

  15. #75

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,863
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    40900
    The problem is that Kwan wasn't pushing the required elements in 2004. Her spiral sequence outside the COE spiral seemed weaker, she didn't do the combo spin she was capable of, didn't do an extra feature on her flying camel (unless you count the semi-layover position she had in 2004), and her footwork that was impressive in 2003 wasn't so impressive in 2004 when other skaters upped their game. However, Kwan's SP elements in 2005 were much better. She did better spirals (her outside edge spiral during her COE spiral had an even more stretched out position than she had in all the previous years she performed that move), did more difficult spins during her combo (and pushed the stretch of her Y), and her footwork was probably one of the best of the competition. I do wonder where she would have placed in 2004 if the ref didn't tag that .1 mandatory deduction on her SP, however.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  16. #76
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,204
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    The problem is that Kwan wasn't pushing the required elements in 2004. Her spiral sequence outside the COE spiral seemed weaker, she didn't do the combo spin she was capable of, didn't do an extra feature on her flying camel (unless you count the semi-layover position she had in 2004), and her footwork that was impressive in 2003 wasn't so impressive in 2004 when other skaters upped their game. However, Kwan's SP elements in 2005 were much better. She did better spirals (her outside edge spiral during her COE spiral had an even more stretched out position than she had in all the previous years she performed that move), did more difficult spins during her combo (and pushed the stretch of her Y), and her footwork was probably one of the best of the competition. I do wonder where she would have placed in 2004 if the ref didn't tag that .1 mandatory deduction on her SP, however.
    I love that camel position! She had all the COP capabilities (the camel variations, the COE on spins, the upright variations, the spiral positions, the footwork turns, all the PCS potential etc) - it's just a matter of putting it together, and overcoming her injuries. I think by 2004-5 her body was so beat that she could barely land those jumps cleanly, let alone doing more complex spins and choreography, but she was still 1 or 2 silly COP errors away from bronze at 2005 Worlds.

    Now if she only had me as her COP advisor back then

  17. #77

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,863
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    40900
    I think she would have loved to see into the future and realize that she could still do 7 triples and a double axel if she did a double axel/triple toe combination in the LP. I did like that she repeated the Lutz and Flip in 2005 and her jumps seemed to get bigger despite her being in a physical decline during the latter part of her career.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  18. #78
    Registered User
    Join Date
    May 2002
    Location
    Hong Kong
    Posts
    11,204
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I think she would have loved to see into the future and realize that she could still do 7 triples and a double axel if she did a double axel/triple toe combination in the LP.
    But that layout is allowed even from day 1 of COP.

    I did like that she repeated the Lutz and Flip in 2005 and her jumps seemed to get bigger despite her being in a physical decline during the latter part of her career.
    The Liashenko layout.

  19. #79

    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Location
    I Want to Go to There
    Posts
    9,863
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    40900
    Quote Originally Posted by Marco View Post
    But that layout is allowed even from day 1 of COP.



    The Liashenko layout.
    It was allowed, but for some reason a lot of the top skaters who transitioned from 6.0 to COP opted to instead do 3/3s. It seems like it wasn't until later on when the younger skaters realized they could still do 7 triples with the axel requirement if they did a triple in combination with the axel.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  20. #80
    Registered User
    Join Date
    Jan 2013
    Posts
    45
    vCash
    500
    Rep Power
    0
    Quote Originally Posted by nguyhm View Post
    I totally agree. It was so frustrating because she could have won just about any competition if only she had skated cleanly. Her presence on ice was amazing, her jumps were not high but her rotations were very fast = powerful (when landed cleanly) and her spirals were striking. IMO, Sasha lost because of her own demise, not because the others were better.
    People always say that but what evidence is there a clean Cohen would usually beat a clean Kwan or clean Slutskaya for instance. I think it is mostly her fans delusions other than reality.

    As for the thread question, simple. Sasha isnt as good as Chan. When Chan skates clean he is unbeatable, and was pretty much his whole career. Sasha going clean can still be beaten by others since she doesnt have his jumping, edges, artistry, footwork, or anything he does other than maybe spins.

Page 4 of 6 FirstFirst ... 23456 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •