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  1. #21
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    For me, Sasha was the ultimate example of style over substance in terms of skating. Style can camouflage weakness in the foundation (to use a construction metaphor) making people feel the skater is not being rewarded appropriately. Conversely, those with strong skating foundation, but weak presentation and style are always viewed as less deserving of being scored generously. Sasha benefited enormously from her exquisite style, but wasn't able to sustain a high level of quality in the substantive parts of her skating.

  2. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by cbd1235 View Post
    IJS scoring is also way different than it used to be. It is almost like a different system now compared to 2003-2006
    IJS was well suited for Cohen, who was already doing many of the things rewarded under the new system (e.g., changing to an outside edge during spins, complicated spin combinations, MITF as transitions). I think Cohen and Chan share similarities in that they both brought a distinct and appreciated style to the ice.
    Sometimes I think I lost something really important to me, and it turns out I already ate it.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Sasha didn't even have the best SS among her competitors. Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa, Suguri, and Kostner were ahead of her in that area. Her spirals had the best split position, but I think some of the above skaters had her beat in ice coverage and speed on their sequences. Her jumps were not as high as Slutskaya's and Arakawa's and she did not perform them consistently nor did she manage to do 3/3s. She also flutzed badly. It's also not as if she was performing tons of transitions either. Sasha may have had some of the best spins in that quad, but Irina and Arakawa were able to keep up with her in terms of gaining points.
    Precisely. What she did have was performance quality that was stunning -- like Nicole Bobek, she demanded your attention, though maybe not as much as Nicole did.

    Where you really saw how deficient Sasha was in skating skills was during practices at major events -- before the SP you'd often see Sasha and Michelle on the ice together, and Michelle's edges and speed had it all over Sasha, whether she was stroking, doing a spiral, or doing footwork. During practices before the free skate, you'd see Sasha vs. other top skaters, and again she fell really short while at the same time always striking beautiful positions.

    Nothing like Chan other than their ability to fall.

  4. #24
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    Sasha is the opposite of Chan, maybe would be nearer to the female Brown.
    Last edited by crisp; 04-11-2014 at 04:23 PM.

  5. #25
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    That is amazing to read that kind of threads. The reason is obvious, and it's not flattering for Sasha Cohen.

  6. #26
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonfan View Post
    For me, Sasha was the ultimate example of style over substance in terms of skating. Style can camouflage weakness in the foundation (to use a construction metaphor) making people feel the skater is not being rewarded appropriately. Conversely, those with strong skating foundation, but weak presentation and style are always viewed as less deserving of being scored generously. Sasha benefited enormously from her exquisite style, but wasn't able to sustain a high level of quality in the substantive parts of her skating.
    ITA.

    (That said, I think that the points difference between Sasha's 06Oly SP and Arakawa's should have been larger.)

  7. #27
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    It probably would have been if Cohen's 2axel wasn't wonky.

  8. #28
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    I think all Sasha had going for her was flexibility, which was incredible but not everything. Without consistent jumps, and somewhat wobbly skating skills, her flexibility often wasn't enough to put her at the top.

  9. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by leafygreens View Post
    I think all Sasha had going for her was flexibility, which was incredible but not everything. Without consistent jumps, and somewhat wobbly skating skills, her flexibility often wasn't enough to put her at the top.
    Let's be fair here.

    By no means were Sasha's skating skills deficient, they just weren't up to Chan's (in the context of this post).

    Her edges and speed *did* improve over time, and she never lost her flexibility (though I wonder if strength was sacrificed for that).

    Remember, Sasha competed at a time when programs were jam-packed (there's one less spin and spiral sequence today). She could've taken Slutskaya's route or Arakawa's route and racked up points with the same move (Biellman and reverse layover donut spin, respectively), but instead offered a variety of beautiful and difficult spin positions. And of course her spiral was spectacular, even if it didn't perhaps have Kwan's edges. So I think she deserves some credit for her style, choreography and interpretation.

    Yes, she was known for her SashaSplat, but rarely did she pop a jump. She went for it.

    As for Arakawa, her spirals at the Olympics are one of the most impressive things I've seen on ice ... ever.

  10. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by all_empty View Post
    As for Arakawa, her spirals at the Olympics are one of the most impressive things I've seen on ice ... ever.
    Glad to see another person acknowledge this. Not only did she show amazing flexibility but her edge control was stunning and the pattern she made was gigantic. IMO it was the greatest spiral ever done in ice skating, at least that I've seen.

  11. #31
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonfan View Post
    For me, Sasha was the ultimate example of style over substance in terms of skating.
    THIS.

  12. #32
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    I have never been a fan of Chan's skating, but you cannot deny that what he does with his blades is simply a notch higher than the rest of the pack. Not only are his edges divine, but he uses every spare moment of his program to highlight excellence in turns, MITF, and bits of footwork. The only skaters who have put together programs that are even in the same universe during his competitive era would be Abbott and Kozuka. You have skaters like Oda, who have the goods, but they don't put out programs that reflect their full capabilities. Just look at Amodio...say what you want, but the boy has great edges. Unfortunately, he'd rather dance in place to gather strength for long stretches of jump/crossovers/jump/crossovers instead of showing good skating.

    When it comes to Sasha, she was extremely gifted as a performer, and less so as a skater. The only part of her actual skating that really stood out were her spins, and as others have said, Arakawa and Slutskaya were not far enough behind for it to give her a significant advantage. To her credit, she really DID make great strides in the skating skills department but not enough for it to become a true strength.

  13. #33
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    If Sasha had Patricks skating skills, jump quality, footwork, and difficult choreography she would probably have the same 4 or 5 advantage over Kwan, Slutskaya, Arakawa, Hughes as Chan has over everyone else by the judges. Unfortunately she has none of those things. The only areas she is the female equivalent to Patrick are interpretation, spins, and lines and style.

  14. #34
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    Sasha did very well under the new scoring system. I don't really see why the haters need to pounce as if she is some mid level skater. She was a star for almost 2 complete quads and the judges loved her.

    The crazy PCS scores being issued today are the judges way of propping up certain skaters similar to the 6.0 system. Only now the judges have the ability of giving someone a PCS of 9.5 vs. 8.75 when only .01 scoring differential is needed to win. Under the 6.0 system it was 5.9 vs. 5.8 with ordinals being a factor also. It gives them greater leverage to keep certain skaters propped up. (Although it didn't work out that way in Sochi).

  15. #35
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    Cohen's base score at was .2 higher than Arakawa's, so even though Arakawa did not have any 3/3's, she still did one more multiple-jump element than Cohen, and if a skater falls or nearly falls on her first two jump elements and biffs the 3/3 sequence (base reduced by 80%) and loses 7 points on nearly half of her jump elements, and has Level 2 steps, she'll have quite a deficit to make up, especially when her opponent got two -1 marks in total, no?

    Quote Originally Posted by rickmercer View Post
    Kozuka and Oda I think do, or atleast as good.
    Then perhaps your thread title should be, "Why haven't Kozuka and Oda been treated like Chan under IJS"
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  16. #36
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    Oda has childish artistry and programs, so doesnt take advantage of his combination of skating skills and strong jumps. Such immature skating cant be given high PCS no matter how strong the skating skills are. Kozuka is inconsistent as heck and always crashing and burning. He skated a great LP at the 2011 worlds but bombed the short so couldnt win with Chan skating 2 perfect programs.

  17. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by NYScorp6 View Post
    Sasha did very well under the new scoring system. I don't really see why the haters need to pounce as if she is some mid level skater. She was a star for almost 2 complete quads and the judges loved her.
    Perhaps the judges weren't immune to all of the overhype. I thought she was overscored in some of the pcs categories. Yes, she had nice extension, toe point, and presentation but that doesn't make up for what's lacking and there's a lot lacking in her skating.

  18. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bostonfan View Post
    For me, Sasha was the ultimate example of style over substance in terms of skating. Style can camouflage weakness in the foundation (to use a construction metaphor) making people feel the skater is not being rewarded appropriately. Conversely, those with strong skating foundation, but weak presentation and style are always viewed as less deserving of being scored generously. Sasha benefited enormously from her exquisite style, but wasn't able to sustain a high level of quality in the substantive parts of her skating.
    So would you prefer Trixie Schuba? Her foundation was wide and strong.

  19. #39

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    Those aren't the only two choices. Also, Schuba had the best figures in the world, but I don't think it translated to her free skates from what I saw. Lynn's skating skills were way more impressive in the free skate.
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  20. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Those aren't the only two choices. Also, Schuba had the best figures in the world, but I don't think it translated to her free skates from what I saw. Lynn's skating skills were way more impressive in the free skate.
    Schuba did show moments of quite good skating skills in the free skating even though. There were little bits of footwork and edge steps she did which were very nifty and nice. The rest of her skating was hefty and cumbersome though, and her spins were horrible.

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