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  1. #61

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    Quote Originally Posted by tourtiere View Post
    Let's not count the chickens before they hatch. So she acquired Scali, a great steal thus far. Before calling her a strategic genius let's see how her teams fare next season. Shibs will be a big test.

    The only problem I see is that I don't think Zoueva will let Scali's artistic talents shine. I still think Zoueva will still have her fingerprints all over Canton choreo. Hopefully Scali is a good technician (I did not think that was his role at DSC but I don't know) because they need one. Shibs will be a test.

    Scali is a great addition, but let's wait for the results of next season to see if Zoueva actually utilized his talents properly. Since Zoueva will probably not allow Scali to touch her choreo let's hope he can be a great technician.

    I read Scali is very direct and in your face approach to his students. He has a very artistic vision with regards to programs so I don't know how will be able to stand Zoueva I wonder if they will butt heads especially if his artistic talents gets thwarted by Zoueva
    I don't know what will happen, but I'm not sure Marina is as narcissistic and single-minded about her artistic vision as you may think. For example, I think there is a big difference between Marina/Igor choreography and Marina choreography. I think there is a chance that she'll want a collaborator again (I don't know much about Massimo's choreo talents).

    I once met a skater who had some sort of lengthy tryout with a skater who was coached by Marina/Igor and his observation was that Igor "drafted" a lot of the program choreography for their teams while Marina cleaned everything up and added a lot of the nuances.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticchic View Post
    No Margaglio will be coming to Canton along with 3 Chinese teams
    Thanks for the news.

    It's great to hear about the Chinese Federation investing in their Ice Dance program. I hope their coaches are coming along as well to learn from Zueva and her team.

    As for Margaglio is he coming to Canton just for the summer, like last year, or permanently?

    Quote Originally Posted by tourtiere View Post
    The only problem I see is that I don't think Zoueva will let Scali's artistic talents shine. I still think Zoueva will still have her fingerprints all over Canton choreo. Hopefully Scali is a good technician (I did not think that was his role at DSC but I don't know) because they need one. Shibs will be a test.

    Scali is a great addition, but let's wait for the results of next season to see if Zoueva actually utilized his talents properly. Since Zoueva will probably not allow Scali to touch her choreo let's hope he can be a great technician.
    What are you basing those assumptions on? In the past Zoueva has collaborated on choreography with Igor Shpilband, Oleg Epstein, Maurizio Margaglio and different ballroom dancers, mimes, acrobats, etc. And possibly also others we're just not aware of. Why wouldn't she collaborate with Massimo Scali?
    Last edited by Ziggy; 04-12-2014 at 05:09 AM.

  3. #63

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    I do think Scali will help the Shibs. F&S were able to do some emotionally accessible programs without necessarily being romantic. And he can help them (particular Maia) perhaps project more, play bigger.

  4. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    I do think Scali will help the Shibs. F&S were able to do some emotionally accessible programs without necessarily being romantic.
    This.

    Quote Originally Posted by manhn View Post
    And he can help them (particular Maia) perhaps project more, play bigger.
    Hoping...
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  5. #65
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    Are Shibs definitely going to continue competing though? Maybe it's just my wishful thinking but considering they haven't been making much progress in terms of results and they seem to be very bright and academically successful, they might want to pursue other avenues.

  6. #66

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    They are staying at least one more season. Personally speaking, I cannot grasp the idea that Shibs have absolutely no chance of beating C&B. Ever.

  7. #67
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    What are you basing those assumptions on? In the past Zoueva has collaborated on choreography with Igor Shpilband, Oleg Epstein, Maurizio Margaglio
    Yes, but they were all technicians. Especially Igor. Not artistes like Massimo Scali. So collaborating with these technicians was easy because they didn't have to fight with Zoueva regarding artistic vision.
    Igor wasn't a real choreographer. I am not dissing Igor. When I am saying he is not a real choreographer, I mean not in the artistic sense. His choreography, like what the person above you said, was a "draft" - a blueprint of where elements should go in a program and how to choreograph footwork to maximize levels (P/B mentioned this when they started working with him). Not to mention the transitions of every single of his couples are the same or almost the same. You can only recycle the same transitions for so long. I am not dissing Igor. My point is, he is more of a technical master than an artist. Same with Oleg Epstein/Margaglio: they were technicians who left the choreo/details/artistic polishes to Zoueva. So you wouldn't see Zoueva butting artistic heads with Igor/Epstein/Margaglio.

    Now, if Scali were to take a technician role like Igor/Epstein it'd be okay and I wouldn't make much of it. But Scali is an artiste. And Zoueva is also an artist (I use this term loosely with her ) and I'm afraid Zoueva won't let his artistic/choreographic talents shine (at least not brighter than hers).

    Quote Originally Posted by Ziggy View Post
    and different ballroom dancers, mimes, acrobats, etc. Why wouldn't she collaborate with Massimo Scali?
    Collaborating with ballroom dancers, mimes, acrobats (who assist in execution, interpretation of the dance, timing, etc) is good but they don't have to share Zoueva's choreographic vision. Did you notice an improvement in Zoueva's choreography while she had all these ballroom dancers, mimes, acrobats? No.

    I'm not doubting Zoueva's ability to collaborate.
    I am doubting whether Marina will allow Scali's artistic/choreographic talents to shine. That's why I said Shibs are going to be a test. Scali can do something with them. He can revamp their style and choreo. If next season, we see Shibs skating the same Zoueva choreography the same way again with the same moves, then it'll show that Scali's creative/choreographic talents are probably not being utilized and that Zoueva has the upper hand again.

    Bottom Line: I have trouble imagining Zoueva, being the character she is, allowing anyone to rain on her artistic parade. I think Scali IMO has more creativity and potential and I don't want his choreographic/artistic vision being thwarted by Zoueva. Shibs will be a test for all of us to see next season if this holds true.

    I am rooting for Team Scali.
    Last edited by tourtiere; 04-12-2014 at 05:52 AM.

  8. #68

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    For some reason, I don't see Marina minding taking a less hands-on approach to the Shibs. Especially if she acquires another team. I think it's clear that she doesn't know what to do with them, and I don't think she's that interested in them.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

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    My first thought was that she was bringing Scali to help her manage the Shibutanis. She probably realizes they need a fresh start and some new input. She's also establishing the foundation of her new team for the next four years(and by team I mean staff).

    She'll probably concentrate in getting some junior teams for post Korea.


    I'm excited for the Shibutanis again.

  10. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    For some reason, I don't see Marina minding taking a less hands-on approach to the Shibs. Especially if she acquires another team. I think it's clear that she doesn't know what to do with them, and I don't think she's that interested in them.
    I agree. I think she will or less hand them over to Scali, and that is the absolute best thing that could happen for them.

  11. #71

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    Watch though. If what we suspect (regarding Scali and the Shibs) happens and the Shibs some how shock the ice dance hierarchy make a huge jump, I can see Marina all of a sudden become super interested in them again.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  12. #72
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    Judging by these quotes from W/P, it looks like Krylova is the main technician, Camerlengo the artist + secondary technician, and Natalia Annenko is also some kind of a technician (probably on lines and posture and such). They mentioned Massimo Scali helping on their SD that year (Latin), which is mostly getting the character and expression down pat I am assuming.

    http://www.ifsmagazine.com/articles/...etroit-dynasty
    "With Pasquale every movement has a purpose. He knows how to create the perfect picture but also understands skating technique. He knows what we need to do to take our- selves to a higher level.

    Anjelika is such a great technician. She can always see what needs to be changed to make us go faster, stronger, deeper on an edge. It is amazing how much she teaches us
    in that respect."
    Natalia is an excellent technician. She came from the Soviet era and her lines are so beautiful."
    If this is the case, then Scali is probably not a technician who can save Zoueva's teams and Shibs from getting low levels and GOE and overall low technical marks that they have been suffering from. I am just speculating but I would not be surprised if this is sadly the case (again). Hopefully he can take what he learned from Krylova, Camerlengo, Mezzadri, Linichuk and use that to help these teams.

    Scali's creativity and artistic talents will hopefully see the light of day in the Canton rink, but Zoueva needs a full time technical coach by her side, like Krylova, Shpilband, Linichuk, Zhulin does.

    Did Oleg Epstein leave Canton on his own decision or was he fired?
    Last edited by tourtiere; 04-12-2014 at 11:55 AM.

  13. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by tourtiere View Post
    Collaborating with ballroom dancers, mimes, acrobats (who assist in execution, interpretation of the dance, timing, etc) is good but they don't have to share Zoueva's choreographic vision. Did you notice an improvement in Zoueva's choreography while she had all these ballroom dancers, mimes, acrobats? No.
    In my opinion, though, the choreography for Virtue/Moir's 'Carmen' FD was different (if you didn't like and/or thought that it was still the same old Zoueva style just because it was 'Carmen', well, that's another thing). Jennifer Swan, Tessa's former ballet teacher and choreographer, worked on it. But that only happened after it became clear that Capellini/Lanotte were doing 'Carmen' too, and Virtue/Moir's initially more classic FD needed a remake into something different. Then an Indian style dancer had a lot of input into Davis/White's Bollywood OD, but Marina very likely knew that she just couldn't do that by herself.

    But may be this is exactly the time when Zoueva realizes that her "artistic vision" has not worked for Shibutanis very well so far.

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    1st- I would have liked to see news from Novi that Igor secured a choreographer like Massimo. It's not too late however I am hoping to hear that he's joining forces with someone who is fresh and dynamic (s.Bourne).

    2nd-Congratulations to Massimo! What better complement than for the top coach/choreographer to hire you? Marina did not coach students in Dance and Pairs to gold medals by being a crappy coach/technician. I believe her artistic vision is what comes naturally to her but she is a great coach. Igor is a good choreographer but he's amazing as a technical coach. Watching them train their teams makes it clear what their dominant talent is but that their secondary talents are not lagging immensely behind.

    3rd- The team at DSC creates great work. Pasquale works positions very well with skaters. Krylova does as well but works on positioning in the dance holds etc. choreography connection etc. Dellar has edge control like none other. She spends her time working on the correct edge and control of pattern dances and the dances themselves. The cohesion is great. I personally think that they pick dance teams that are passionate about being creative and work really well with them. I've often been interested in seeing what they could do with Tessa and Scott. Pasquale is so innovative and limitless in his imagination that i also believe that the Shibs will be fun for him. They are so great technically i believe that his ability to create would be expressed well through them.

    4th-I hope that a choreographer who has a POV we have not seen before teams with Igor. There has to be a dance choreographer, ballroom choreographer etc. that can understand ice dance and help the sport. Where is the David Wilson/Lori Nichol of dance? There was a time when you only saw work from Bezic, Kawahara, Scotvolds then someone else comes and changes the game. I'm waiting!

  15. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by arakwafan2006 View Post
    1st- I would have liked to see news from Novi that Igor secured a choreographer like Massimo. It's not too late however I am hoping to hear that he's joining forces with someone who is fresh and dynamic (s.Bourne).

    ...

    4th-I hope that a choreographer who has a POV we have not seen before teams with Igor. There has to be a dance choreographer, ballroom choreographer etc. that can understand ice dance and help the sport. Where is the David Wilson/Lori Nichol of dance? There was a time when you only saw work from Bezic, Kawahara, Scotvolds then someone else comes and changes the game. I'm waiting!
    Fabian Bourzat is joining the coaching staff at Novi, though that has nothing to do with choreo (yet?). But I get the impression that Shpilband doesn't mind his teams working with outside choreographers. P/B did that for years, including this past season.

    David Wilson co-choreographed one of the best FDs of the past season, Hurtado/Diaz's Surviving Picasso. Maybe he'll start doing more dance work?

  16. #76
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    Not seeing how the Shibs would be working with Pasquale Camerlengo, though. Or was that a wish list idea?
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  17. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by arakwafan2006 View Post
    1st-
    4th-I hope that a choreographer who has a POV we have not seen before teams with Igor. There has to be a dance choreographer, ballroom choreographer etc. that can understand ice dance and help the sport. Where is the David Wilson/Lori Nichol of dance? There was a time when you only saw work from Bezic, Kawahara, Scotvolds then someone else comes and changes the game. I'm waiting!
    What is Karine Arribert up to these days? I'd love to see more of her choreography.
    If you want to be creative, get out there and do it. It's not a waste of time" - Michael Giacchino, UP

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    Quote Originally Posted by LynnW View Post
    What is Karine Arribert up to these days? I'd love to see more of her choreography.
    She worked with the now-split Popova/Massot.

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    I do know that Igor respected the choreo Karine did for Blanc & Bouquet. Maybe they could do some collaboration?

  20. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by mysticchic View Post
    No Margaglio will be coming to Canton along with 3 Chinese teams
    Dear Mysticchich, with all respect, where did you get that information, which has been kept secret for the Finnish federation so far? Are you sure it did not mean three Finnish teams?

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