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  1. #881
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    The Russian Ice Dance teams have traditionally been seen as sacrificing close dance-holds in the name of speed and power. When Ice Dancing became an Olympic sport, people noted the difference between the British school and the Russian school. Of course, the Russian school won out in the end.
    I never thought that couples like K&P, K&O, G&P, U&Z were sacrificing close dance-holds.
    I can't speak for Pakhomova&Gorshkov, Moiseeva&Minenkov because I've seen only videos from youtube, mainly exhibition programs.

    Klimova&Ponomarenko beat Torvill& Dean in about everything, imo, but especially in those close dance-holds.
    Last edited by Amantide; 06-23-2014 at 04:20 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    The Russian Ice Dance teams have traditionally been seen as sacrificing close dance-holds in the name of speed and power. When Ice Dancing became an Olympic sport, people noted the difference between the British school and the Russian school. Of course, the Russian school won out in the end. Watching Bobrova/Soloviev and Iliynkh/Katsalapov (when they were together) now it looks like they took the traditional Russian look to an even higher level with all their huge separations during dance holds and throughout the programs. To be fair, I think I/K and B/S were just following a trend that almost every ice dance team of their generation is doing thanks to COP and how ice dance is being rewarded.
    I totally disagree with your statement. There is no way that K&P, U&Z, K&O, and even B&B did not have close dance holds. G&P did not always skate close together - they had portions of separation in their programs- but they had close dance holds rest of the way. It's an insult to these great ice dancers to say that they had only speed and power. How many British ice dancers - other than T&D- came even close to the difficulty K&P, K&O, U&Z, G&P and B&B had in their programs? I will have to see Pakhamova-Gorshkov's skating again before I can say anything about them, but they too were wonderful ice dancers.

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    I remember reading about that after reading an excerpt of Ellyn Kestnbaum's Culture on Ice years ago. I also heard it mentioned on this forum before and I think I remember some commentary in early 1980s ice dance competitions mentioning the Russians bringing more athleticism and drama to ice dance. I never said some of the above mentioned teams didn't have close dance holds. K/P were probably THE example of a Russian team who had close dance holds. However, they were noted in the 1980s for having a more traditional approach to ice dance. I think Ice Dance before it became an Olympic sport looked different than when it became one and when Min and Mo and B&B and even T/D's Bolero became the standards of ice dance.

    This wikipedia article cites to both Kestnbaum's book and Beverly Smith's work:

    Many of the compulsory dances were developed by dancers from Great Britain in the 1930s. Ice dancing joined the World Championships in 1952. 12 of the first 16 World Championships in ice dance were won by British teams. The British style of ice dance originally emphasized upright carriage and strong edges achieved by deep knee bend. Beginning in the 1960s, Eastern European skaters started a trend to dance in more open positions, which allowed for greater speed over the ice, more upper-body involvement, and greater projection towards the audience.

    Ice dancing, then known as "rhythmic skating," was a demonstration event at the 1968 Winter Olympics at Grenoble, won by the team of Diane Towler[/URL] and of Great Britain. It became an official medal event eight years later in 1976 at Innsbruck, with the first title won by Lyudmila Pakhomova and Aleksandr Gorshkov. In the 1970s, top Soviet dancers began to develop a more theatrical style of ice dancing incorporating elements of ballet and often based on narrative program themes. The Russian style of dance emphasized extended line and speed, rather than difficult rhythmic footwork. In some cases, elaborate choreography for the upper body was used to camouflage fundamental deficiencies of skating technique.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ice_dan...e_note-ek246-9

    Let's face it, K/O, B/B, and G/P did utilize much more open holds than many of their contemporaries and especially in comparison to ice dancers that came generations before each of those teams. However, what they got out of it was much more power, ice coverage, speed, and ability to do bigger and difficult moves outside of quick footwork.

    Also, Vash01, the Brits had many world ice dance champions pre-Olympics and pretty much invented and dominated the sport. I think the idea that Eastern Europeans countries utilized more open skating was in comparison to the traditional ballroom style of ice dance that the Brits excelled at. I said the Russian style won out because the style of ice dance we see now has definitely deviated from the origins of ice dance (killing compulsory dances was the final nail on the coffin after years of rule changes that aligned ice dance to the more more athletic sport we now see under COP). You were absolutely misreading my statement when you think it says all the Russian ice dance teams had speed and power. Of course they had to dance and express music as well. But it's ignoring history if you don't see how the sport evolved.

    I also think it's funny that you took the comment as insulting to the great Russian teams when you had no problem insulting the past British world champions that were instrumental in creating this sport and making it into an Olympic one.
    Last edited by VIETgrlTerifa; 06-26-2014 at 05:52 AM.
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    Oh, I see not even a reference to a russian book on the subject.
    Is it possible to find a book on skating from russian authors but in english? I can't find any on Amazon.

    @ VIETgrlTerifa
    Sorry, I didn't realise you were referring to the style before Innsbruck. Not that I know much after that, till 1984 tbh.
    I might be in a minority here. It looks like on FS italian groups on FB I'm for sure, but I loved the compulsory dances.

    G/P did utilize much more open holds than many of their contemporaries
    Which period are you referring to, 1990-1994 or the second quad?

    By the way I would've loved to see Oksana with Chichkov as seniors. For me he was a great match for her, better than Platov.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKQ8DPVP8Yw

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    I should say 1994 really. I can't really use the 1989-1992 period because Ice Dance was seriously different from ballroom that I don't think any of the teams were utilizing close holds in the FDs.

    In 1995-1998, G/P were clearly the class of the field, even though their 1998 FD was all open skating really (but not easy as Memorial is a difficult dance).
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  6. #886
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    I should say 1994 really. I can't really use the 1989-1992 period because Ice Dance was seriously different from ballroom that I don't think any of the teams were utilizing close holds in the FDs.

    In 1995-1998, G/P were clearly the class of the field, even though their 1998 FD was all open skating really (but not easy as Memorial is a difficult dance).
    They're on of my fav.teams, mostly because of her really, but for me the best 3 programs from G&P are: FD 1992, Libertango 1997 (absolutely beautiful) and the FD Feeling. Especially their performance at Euros.
    I liked their OD in 1994 but the above 3 were always on the top as programs.

    Strange though that UK with all that tradition has lost it for so long. I mean after T&D of course.

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    Also remember that the rules changed from when the maximum time a couple could be out of hold was three seconds, and out-of-hold was being compared to the British teams and style. Compared to teams today, K/P were practically glued together, and the idea of a non-touching footwork sequence was unthinkable.

    Uwe Preiser in "Sternstunden des Eiskunstlaufs" ("Born to be a Star"), a book of German essays and English translations that was for sale at Dortmund Worlds, quotes Gorskhov (translation): "The British ice dancers had such an impressive technique that we weren't able to defeat them on their own ground. So we were looking for something new. Something that would direct the looks of the audience and the judges to us."
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  8. #888
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    Also remember that the rules changed from when the maximum time a couple could be out of hold was three seconds, and out-of-hold was being compared to the British teams and style. Compared to teams today, K/P were practically glued together, and the idea of a non-touching footwork sequence was unthinkable.

    Uwe Preiser in "Sternstunden des Eiskunstlaufs" ("Born to be a Star"), a book of German essays and English translations that was for sale at Dortmund Worlds, quotes Gorskhov (translation): "The British ice dancers had such an impressive technique that we weren't able to defeat them on their own ground. So we were looking for something new. Something that would direct the looks of the audience and the judges to us."
    I can't find this book too.

  9. #889
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    Last edited by Amantide; 06-26-2014 at 08:32 AM.

  10. #890
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amantide View Post
    I can't find this book too.
    I've never seen it anywhere but Dortmund Worlds. The publisher is listed as "Deutsche Eislauf Union e.V., Munchen" (production by Lensing Druck, Ahaus). You may be able to contact them to see if it's still available.

    There are short essays (2-3 pages in each language) on Sonja Henie, Maxi Herber/Ernst Baier, Dick Button, Marika Kilius/Hans-Jurgen Baumler, Ludmilla and Oleg Protopopow, Peggy Fleming, Toller Cranston, Ludmilla Pachomowa/Alexander Gorschkow, John Curry, Irina Rodnina/Alexander Zaitsew, Jayne Torvill/Christopher Dean, Katarina Witt, Kurt Browning, Midori Ito, Kristi Yamaguchi, Natalia Mischkutionok/Artur Dmitriew, Michelle Kwan, Miki Ando, Xue Shen/Hongbo Zhao. (All of the names transliterated from Cyrillic are spelled as pronounced in German.)
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    Bazarova and Deputat performed their short program (minus a couple of elements) for the first time! They look great together. They also demonstrated SBS jumps and the throw triple from their long program:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol5Yly33fwY

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fialka88 View Post
    Bazarova and Deputat performed their short program (minus a couple of elements) for the first time! They look great together. They also demonstrated SBS jumps and the throw triple from their long program:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ol5Yly33fwY
    thanks so much; it's miki's version of 'my way' (sorry, it will take some time for me to accept, she will not compete anymore )

    i like this pair much better than bazarova/larionov.
    it's obvious, that there is much work to be done, but if she may fix her solo jumps, this pair could work quite well.

    i like the layout of the short program; death spiral to start, absolute totmianina/marinin flashbacks there, i absolutey loved this; i also liked the concept of the twist right after the steps; can't wait to see how this will develop during the season.

  13. #893

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeschke View Post
    thanks so much; it's miki's version of 'my way' (sorry, it will take some time for me to accept, she will not compete anymore )

    i like this pair much better than bazarova/larionov.
    it's obvious, that there is much work to be done, but if she may fix her solo jumps, this pair could work quite well.

    i like the layout of the short program; death spiral to start, absolute totmianina/marinin flashbacks there, i absolutey loved this; i also liked the concept of the twist right after the steps; can't wait to see how this will develop during the season.
    Actually Maxim Marinin choreographed the short program

  14. #894
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeschke View Post
    i like this pair much better than bazarova/larionov.
    ITA. She looks happy and relaxed, and he's smiling. If for nothing else, she got a great deal from this breakup.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeschke View Post
    i like the layout of the short program; death spiral to start, absolute totmianina/marinin flashbacks there, i absolutey loved this; i also liked the concept of the twist right after the steps; can't wait to see how this will develop during the season.
    I'm with you: this isn't the standard 1. Twist 2. Jumps 3. Throw set-up.

    The celestial "My Way" arrangement is scary, but it builds well, and she's building along with it. Maybe being the experience one and leading is a good thing for her.
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanfan1818 View Post
    ITA. She looks happy and relaxed, and he's smiling. If for nothing else, she got a great deal from this breakup.


    I'm with you: this isn't the standard 1. Twist 2. Jumps 3. Throw set-up.

    The celestial "My Way" arrangement is scary, but it builds well, and she's building along with it. Maybe being the experience one and leading is a good thing for her.
    oops, i mixed twist and throw

    i absolutely like this non-standard programs; t/m shorts were always a great example, susanna poykio got a greta munich-free skate with steps to finish, miki 2006 spin to start, miyahara steps to start, want to see more like that

  16. #896
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    No, you had it right: the throw is in the middle and the twist is at the end

    I meant it *isn't* like the standard first do the twist, skate to the other end, do the jumps, and then do the throw next or one element after, leaving the spins and spirals and lift (in some order) to the end. I love that the elements are distributed. One of my favorite SP's is Totmianina/Marinin's Grieg (2003) SP that started with the Pairs spin. Who does that?
    "The team doesn't get automatic capacity because management is mad" -- Greg Smith, agile guy

  17. #897
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    Well hell's bells, B/D's SBS jump timing is already better than she ever was with Larionov!
    I am free of all prejudices. I hate everyone equally.~W. C. Fields

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasey View Post
    Well hell's bells, B/D's SBS jump timing is already better than she ever was with Larionov!
    And has an interesting entry!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kasey View Post
    Well hell's bells, B/D's SBS jump timing is already better than she ever was with Larionov!
    She did not struggle with jumps the season before the last. They were never particularly synchronized with Larionov's jumps, but they were landed pretty reliably. They nearly won GPF that year (I think they should have beaten Volosozhar-Trankov, but V-T were held up). The last season's struggles may be contributed to the fact that they did not spend time doing them during the summer (as we know from her interview) and then suddenly she was not ready with jumps for GP events. And when she started struggling with them, then the confidence would go down and suddenly it becomes bigger issue. The fact that she did not particularly clicked with their coach would make things even harder, because then if she is not relaxed during their practices, how can she progress.

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    B/D will bring the pretty. I like Larinov, but he looked like Stas Morosov skating with Volo. Big muscled men look better with athletic women. Elegant skaters like Vera and Tatiana look so much better with the more slender elegant partners. Diva Vera's lifts are simply exquisite. They need work, but I think they will be a top team, and since Davenkova has a new partner, I'm not at all sad she and Deputat split. I'm so looking forward to all the changes in Russian pairings. So far, I think they all made the correct choices for this next quad. Actually, I'm looking forward to pairs in general as it's going to be sooooo different and nobody will really know what to expect.
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