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  1. #161
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Well, some federations' skaters get the benefit of doubt no matter what country they are in.
    Indeed but that benefit is doubled or even tripled for those powerful federations/countries when at home. We see it time and time again. If any top skater could have a prayer granted it would be to have the next Olympics or next major event to be at home, especialy if you are from one of the power countries- Russia, Japan, U.S, Canada, France. It is a huge advantage over your rivals.

  2. #162
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    Quote Originally Posted by grassroots39 View Post
    The U.S girls were definitely way overscored in the short program at the 2002 Olympics. The SP results should have been:

    1. Slutskaya
    2. Kwan
    3. Cohen or Suguri
    5. Sebeysten
    6. Butyrskaya
    7. Robinson
    8. Hughes

    More realistically factoring in reputation and what the judges were more likely to do as fenway and kwanoverrated put it though, the results with the Olympics outside Salt Lake City would have been:

    1. Slutskaya
    2. Kwan
    3. Butyrskaya
    4. Suguri
    5. Cohen
    6. Hughes
    7. Sebeysten
    8. Robinson
    Robinson ahead of Hughes in the short? Please A clean Jennifer Robinson at the time was about on par with a clean Jenny Kirk.

  3. #163
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    Robinson ahead of Hughes in the short? Please A clean Jennifer Robinson at the time was about on par with a clean Jenny Kirk.
    Yeah since Jenny Kirk was top 10 at worlds so many times (try never). If Jenny Kirk skated her best it is quite possible her short would deserve to be over Sarah's Olympic short anyway. If you think Sarah actually deserved 4th in the Olympic short, that is far funnier than someone thinking even Robinson could have been placed over her.

  4. #164
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    Not to mention Fumie's personality, Sasha won by default. Her presence on ice was much much better.

  5. #165
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    Quote Originally Posted by grassroots39 View Post
    Yeah since Jenny Kirk was top 10 at worlds so many times (try never). If Jenny Kirk skated her best it is quite possible her short would deserve to be over Sarah's Olympic short anyway. If you think Sarah actually deserved 4th in the Olympic short, that is far funnier than someone thinking even Robinson could have been placed over her.
    True. Jenny's Chicago program at 2004 nationals would easily deserve to beat Sarah's best short program performance.

  6. #166
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    True. Jenny's Chicago program at 2004 nationals would easily deserve to beat Sarah's best short program performance.
    2 judges put Jenny above a clean Kwan, and another above a clean Sasha at those Nationals in the short. So yes you are right. If Sarah somehow beat that it would only be by name, not merit, and that is Sarah's best short which her Olympic short was far from.

  7. #167
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    True. Jenny's Chicago program at 2004 nationals would easily deserve to beat Sarah's best short program performance.
    Jenny was a far improved skater in 2004 compared to 2002.

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    Jenny was a far improved skater in 2004 compared to 2002.
    She was. Okay, I will revise it then. I'd have put a clean gangly Kirk's Princess Diaries or Evita program over any short program that gangly Hughes did.

  9. #169

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    Maybe I am misremembering Kirk's skating, but I don't remember being particularly bowled over by it. It always seemed pretty small. Not that Hughes was the epitome of ladies figure skating, but she had great qualities with her really bad ones. However, that SLC SP was pretty bad.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  10. #170
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    I don't think you are misremembering. Kirk's skating was nothing special. That said, I still greatly preferred her to Hughes. And I felt that way long before Salt Lake City.

  11. #171
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Maybe I am misremembering Kirk's skating, but I don't remember being particularly bowled over by it. It always seemed pretty small. Not that Hughes was the epitome of ladies figure skating, but she had great qualities with her really bad ones. However, that SLC SP was pretty bad.
    That is how I remember Sarah, and why she was so frustrating for me to watch. One minute she would do a lovely flying camel, then some awkward choreography, a lovely double axel, then some hunched stroking. She could go from positively elegant to gangly mess in under ten seconds. It was maddening.

    Her SLC placement to me is a reminder of one of the few things I don't miss about the ordinal system. She ended up in 4th not because the judges truly wanted her there, but because the rest of the numbers were all over the map from 4-8 and she ended up on top of the heap due mostly to 5th place numbers IIRC.

  12. #172
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    I can see how sarah ended up 4th in the SLC SP. She wasnt great but was still pretty clean and Maria had a very subpar short for her standards, and Sebeysten didnt have any name value at the time so was never going to be placed that high. The only slight mystery is Suguri's placement, and why she wasnt ahead of Sarah and Maria's relatively weak skates.

  13. #173
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    How did Sarah beat Maria in the short program anyway? Head to head, Maria had 5 judges to Sarah's 4. http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg200...lts/SEG003.HTM

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    Robinson ahead of Hughes in the short? Please A clean Jennifer Robinson at the time was about on par with a clean Jenny Kirk.
    I don't know about the Jenny Kirk comparison, but the judges never had any use for JSlo. Yes, she managed to land her jumps sometimes, but her basic stroking was really weak for an elite skater. I don't thinks folks outside of Canada gebnerally saw her as having real podium potential at Worlds. IMO she belonged (as was correctly placed by the judges) in a class below Hughes.

  15. #175
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    How did Sarah beat Maria in the short program anyway? Head to head, Maria had 5 judges to Sarah's 4. http://www.icecalc.com/events/owg200...lts/SEG003.HTM
    I think you have misread the numbers.

    In the one-by-one comparison, Hughes won five judges 1(6-8), 3(4-6), 5(5-6), 8 (4-6) and 9(4-6)
    Butyrskaya won only 4 judges 2(10-3), 4(5-3), 6(5-3), 7(5-4).
    (I have shown Hughes' ordinal first in both lists.)

    If it is any consolation, under Majority Ordinals the result would have been the same, because a majority of the judges had Hughes 5th or better while you needed to count the 6th place ordinals for Butyrskaya to get a majority of the panel.

    I think this SP was about as jumbled as it gets, because so many skaters were kind of clean but had flaws that different judges weighted differently and other qualities that they valued differently. I'm more baffled that 3 judges had Slutskaya in 3rd, behind Cohen.

  16. #176

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    Quote Originally Posted by frillit View Post
    The only slight mystery is Suguri's placement, and why she wasnt ahead of Sarah and Maria's relatively weak skates.
    Japan was not a very powerful federation back then, had no judge on the panel, and was more aligned with the minority block of judges, and the marks clearly showed it.

    The judging panel gave her:

    GER 4th
    ITA 4th
    CAN 5th
    USA 5th
    ----------
    SVK 8th
    FIN 9th
    DEN 11th
    BLR 12th
    RUS 13th

    This block judging example is absurd.

    I also think it is funny that Russia and Belarus gave Jennifer Robinson of CAN 6th and 7th respectively although Canada and the US both gave her 9th.
    Last edited by bardtoob; 05-07-2014 at 07:54 PM.

  17. #177
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    Quote Originally Posted by Susan M View Post
    I think you have misread the numbers.

    In the one-by-one comparison, Hughes won five judges 1(6-8), 3(4-6), 5(5-6), 8 (4-6) and 9(4-6)
    Butyrskaya won only 4 judges 2(10-3), 4(5-3), 6(5-3), 7(5-4).
    (I have shown Hughes' ordinal first in both lists.)

    If it is any consolation, under Majority Ordinals the result would have been the same, because a majority of the judges had Hughes 5th or better while you needed to count the 6th place ordinals for Butyrskaya to get a majority of the panel.

    I think this SP was about as jumbled as it gets, because so many skaters were kind of clean but had flaws that different judges weighted differently and other qualities that they valued differently. I'm more that 3 judges had Slutskaya in 3rd, behind Cohen.
    a-ha! Doh! Thanks for clearing that up for me.

    The Russian judges marks are hilarious. If she had her way, Robinson and Fontana would have made the final group and Suguri would have not even qualified for the penultimate group.

    I'm sure the short program result/ordinal was a big wake up call to the Russian federation that Slutskaya was not leaving with a gold medal - not on American soil.

  18. #178
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    For what it's worth, Suguri had 6th place in the SP for pretty much most of the remainder of the competition until Sarah Meier (the last skater) flipped the OBO ordinals around to push Suguri down to 7th and Sebestyen up to 6th.

    The ordinals from 5th all the way down to 11th were a mess with 5-4 splits (using OBO) all over the place

  19. #179

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    More than Butyrskaya, I wondered what the heck happened to Gusmeroli's skating. Her 2000 Worlds performance was quite excellent in terms of performance, but then in SLC her performance matched the lackluster quality of her routines. Even if she had injuries and couldn't jump, she was usually entertaining and musical. However, she just wasn't there.
    "Corporation, n. An ingenious device for obtaining individual profit without individual responsibility." - Ambrose Bierce

  20. #180
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    More than Butyrskaya, I wondered what the heck happened to Gusmeroli's skating. Her 2000 Worlds performance was quite excellent in terms of performance, but then in SLC her performance matched the lackluster quality of her routines. Even if she had injuries and couldn't jump, she was usually entertaining and musical. However, she just wasn't there.
    That was a very inconsistant period for the "also-rans!" You had Gusmeroli excelling that one time, Sokololov was runner up to Kwan once at Worlds, then couldn't stay upright on her skates!

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