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  1. #141
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    I think this is the first time ever that I'm hearing that Suguri didn't deserve to beat Rochette in Turin.
    Suguri was undermarked in Turin and should have been closer to Arakawa in the SP.
    Yeah she should have been closer to Arakawa in the short program, and Shizuka was way overmarked in the short program which might have made a big difference to her winning in the end, and Slutskaya and Cohen's mentality going into the LP. However Shizuka so far blew Fumie away in the LP it wouldnt matter, and there is no case for Fumie beating Irina or Sasha overall either.

    Joannie's LP was better than Fumie's easily. Should have beaten her no questions, and been 2nd in the LP in fact. Whether she would beat her overall considering the SP who knows, but her LP was clearly better than Fumie's borefest with only 5 triples and some shaky landings.


    At least you admit that she deserved a higher placement in the SP. Btw, Kwan didn't land 6 clean triples and Cohen and Slutskaya both had at least one iffy landing.
    Kwan and Slutskaya atleast landed 6 triples even if 1 or 2 were questionable in cleanliness. Same with Cohen. Fumie only attempted and landed 5 and the quality of her positions and line dont compare to Michelle or Sasha, her non jump elements dont compare to Sasha, Irina, or even Michelle either. I cant see any case for her being better than 5th in the LP there.

  2. #142
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    Quote Originally Posted by grassroots39 View Post
    Kwan and Slutskaya atleast landed 6 triples even if 1 or 2 were questionable in cleanliness. Same with Cohen. Fumie only attempted and landed 5 and the quality of her positions and line dont compare to Michelle or Sasha, her non jump elements dont compare to Sasha, Irina, or even Michelle either. I cant see any case for her being better than 5th in the LP there.

    A case could be made that while Kwan and Cohen attempted more triples than Suguri, at least Suguri didn't splat.

    Btw, in 2002 Cohen's basic skating didn't compare to Suguri so that is another argument in favour of Suguri.

  3. #143
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    If the Olympics were not in the U.S Suguri would have won the silver behind Slutskaya. Her short program would have been 4th behind Slutskaya (1st), Butyrskaya (2nd), Kwan (3rd) and her long program moved her past Kwan and Butyrskaya's weaker long program performances for silver. Hughes would have been hammered her URs and her other issues in the LP like she usually is outside the U.S and been lucky to even medal, especialy with her weak short program.

    In Turin though Fumie was lucky to finish 4th if anything. She in no way deserved a medal there, and I have never heard anyone seriously suggest so until now.

  4. #144

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    ^ You must not have been on the internet around Torino. There was certainly people complaining about Suguri being underscored and deserving a medal, although there were also people saying that she should not have.

    As for Suguri winning silver if the Olympics were held anywhere but the U.S., not likely. And Hughes had been consistently scoring around the same as she had in SLC. She'd been consistently scoring higher from 1999-2002 thanks to her consistency, good flow, nice skating skills, attention to presentation, and a penchant for trying 3/3s. She had issues, but so did the people who she ended up beating.

    I find Butyrskaya's SLC SP performance to be overrated by a few in the vocal minority. It helps that Hughes placed too high (even though her ordinals were all over the place), but really, she was slow, creaky, shaky, uninspired, and many of her elements were subpar by the time SLC rolled around. If she was her 1999-2000 self, then yeah she should have placed higher. But her actual SLC SP blew.
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  5. #145
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    Well the grand prix final was held just a month earlier. Kwan, Slutskaya, and Butyrskaya all skated basically the exact same way. Kwan and Butyrskaya were both clean with one shaky landing like SLC, and Slutskaya perfect like SLC. Slutskaya easily won the short with all 1st place votes, while Butyrskaya beat Kwan for 2nd in the short on a 4-3 split. This indicates that the Olympics being in the U.S had a huge impact on the SLC short program standings, especialy with regards to the 3 American women vs everyone else.

    As for Suguri, that year she was regularly outscoring Cohen all season long. Easily outscored Cohen's clean short at the Goodwill Games, not held in the U.S, and would have beaten her at the worlds post Games even if Cohen had been clean. Only at the Olympics in the U.S was it different.

    Maybe there are some people who say Suguri was robbed in Turin but they are crazy. Her LP was boring, horribly choreographed, showcased her awful leg lines and extensions, her spins were weak, and she doubled a jump and had some other shaky landings. Even bad Slutskaya deserved to beat her, especialy with Irina's amazing short which should have scored even higher than it did and deservedly had her way ahead. Cohen's long program was sublime other than the 2 mistakes, and combined with her great short easily beats an unclean and mediocre program by Fumie. Fumie's short was very good and maybe should have scored a bit higher, but her long scored just right. Anyone who says Fumie was robbed is just going by skating 101 for Dummies philosophy, oh Sasha fell twice, Irina once, Fumie didnt fall in either program so Fumie silver, Irina bronze, Sasha 4th, when in fact the judges got it exactly right on.

    Hughes had gotten good scores for her LP that season, but if she wasnt even in the final flight, which she wouldnt have been if the Olympics werent in the U.S, that combined with her badly < jumps would have killed her.

  6. #146
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post
    Well the grand prix final was held just a month earlier. Kwan, Slutskaya, and Butyrskaya all skated basically the exact same way. Kwan and Butyrskaya were both clean with one shaky landing like SLC, and Slutskaya perfect like SLC. Slutskaya easily won the short with all 1st place votes, while Butyrskaya beat Kwan for 2nd in the short on a 4-3 split. This indicates that the Olympics being in the U.S had a huge impact on the SLC short program standings, especialy with regards to the 3 American women vs everyone else.
    I thought it was ridiculous that Kwan's Rachmaninoff SP was placed below Butyrskaya's subpar SP at the GPF. While I love Maria, her 2002 skating was simply not at Kwan and Slutskaya's level. I would be ok with either Slutskaya or Kwan winning the short at the GPF.

    Kwan placing ahead of Butyrskaya in the SLC SP was completely appropriate. The one element Bute did better was the solo triple. Cohen was better than Suguri in the SLC short - Fumie was a bit tentative while Sasha nailed her program.

    With that said, the lack of recognition Fumie gets on FSU for what she does well.. If Fumie brought her 2005 FCC game to Torino, I think she'd deserve the gold (though I doubt the judges will do the same).

  7. #147
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    I am not neccessarily saying Maria should have been over Michelle in the SP in SLC. I am simply giving a reference point to how different the scoring of the shorts were outside the U.S to inside. At the very least I am pretty sure Maria would have been 3rd in the short anywhere else (I think Sasha's short was probably better, and I thought Sasha's short was better than Michelle's that night too, but Maria is a former world champion), and Irina would have easily been 1st. Fumie would have been higher, and quite possibly above both Sasha and Sarah. I thought Sasha's short was actually better but Fumie had the reputation over Sasha at that point, but U.S home court more than overcame that. Fumie's beautiful short program with mostly excellent elements being placed 3 spots behind Hughes and her relatively poor short was a joke, and only in the U.S. Either way anyone who thinks the Olympics being in the U.S didnt have a huge impact on the marking of the U.S ladies and the non U.S contenders is a clueless ditz. Even though I was fine with Hughes winning the LP portion, I dont think even that would have happened outside the U.S.

    And no Kwan could not have reasonably won the SP at the grand prix final. Irina was the CLEAR winner of the SP at the grand prix final, and the judges agreed, and frankly she was the clear winner of the short in SLC too, and would have won it easily had the Olympics not been in the U.S.

    Fumie would deserve 2nd in the LP in Turin with her 2005 4CCs program and performance. Even then not sure if she would deserve 2nd overall with how well Sasha skated in the short, and how exquisite her LP was outside the 2 mistakes (and note I dont like Sasha). She would deserve to beat Irina overall probably with that performance put into Turin, but with the program she actually did any result but 4th would have been crazy. I dont agree she would have deserved to beat Shizuka. Shizuka's Turandot is a masterpiece, she skated reasonably well that night, and one she finally matured in the 2004-2006 period she is simply a much better and higher caliber overall skater than Fumie.
    Last edited by kwanoverrated; 05-03-2014 at 06:08 PM.

  8. #148
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post
    Fumie would have been higher, and quite possibly above both Sasha and Sarah. I thought Sasha's short was actually better but Fumie had the reputation over Sasha at that point, but U.S home court more than overcame that.
    I actually agree with this. Sasha beat Fumie because the competition was in the US. When they both skated cleanly on neutral ice earlier that season at the Goodwill Fames, Fumie beat her soundly in both programs. Hell, the short program judging in SLC was a farce. Kwan had no business winning that portion and only did so because it was home ice. That she actually gave thumbs down to the very generous judges scores was ridiculous, not to mention disrespectful. I think someone had a talk with her about the bad press that gesture received because she finally stopped doing that after that competition.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by fenway2 View Post
    I actually agree with this. Sasha beat Fumie because the competition was in the US. When they both skated cleanly on neutral ice earlier that season at the Goodwill Fames, Fumie beat her soundly in both programs. Hell, the short program judging in SLC was a farce. Kwan had no business winning that portion and only did so because it was home ice. That she actually gave thumbs down to the very generous judges scores was ridiculous, not to mention disrespectful. I think someone had a talk with her about the bad press that gesture received because she finally stopped doing that after that competition.
    Yeah Kwan giving a thumbs down to a huge gift from the judges (and lets be real, it wasnt because she was agreeing she was overmarked, lol). It shows she needed a real coach to keep her attitude in check as she looked like a fool at that moment. The two judges who gave the 5.5 and 5.6 for elements were the only one who scored her about correctly considering her triple flip and Irina's much superior technical performance to begin with which didnt even get a 5.9 for elements amazingly. She should have been kissing the judges ass for that colassal gift of the short program win in SLC, and for 7 of the 9 judges giving her 5.7-5.9 for elements.

    Anyone who understands the way skating works then, and how everyone was scored all year, would also know no way would you have placements like Sasha 3rd to Fumie's 7th, or even Michelle's 1st to Maria's 5th, anywhere but the U.S. It was so inconsistent with the scoring the entire rest of the season it was just blatant that location determined 80% of the results. Hughes in 4th was normal, but her skate was much below par to her usual short program, even considering they are never great, so again was a U.S based home cooked gift with a cherry on top and made her gold medal possible.

  10. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by shady82 View Post
    Kwan placing ahead of Butyrskaya in the SLC SP was completely appropriate. The one element Bute did better was the solo triple. Cohen was better than Suguri in the SLC short

    I'm not seeing that TBH.

    Even with the slightly shaky landing on the lutz, Bute had a decent jump combo while Kwan flutzed.
    Bute's double axel was also no worse than Kwan's IMO and same about their flying spin (a case coudld be made for Kwan because on the spin because hers was more difficult but on the axel I'd give the edge to Butyrskya).

    And the difference on the flip was that Maria had a quality issue while Kwan had a mandatory deduction.

    As for Suguri vs. Cohen...I guess a case could be made for Cohen in the SP because of her spins and spirals but the LP I definitely would have given to Suguri based on her stronger basic skating and choreography.

  11. #151
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    I agree there is a case to put Cohen above Suguri in the SP. However due to their reputation at the time Fumie would have been ahead anywhere but the U.S. Remember Sasha had never even been to a world championships. At the very least even forgetting that and just looking at the skating, a 4 person gap was asanine. I wont even get started on Fumie placing 3 spots behind Sarah in the short program.

    Rewatching Sasha's short program btw she didnt even close the footwork pattern which should have been a mandatory deduction. Yet Irina who would have EASILY won the SP anywhere but the U.S lost 3 judges to international unknown World level debutante Sasha who even had three 2nd place ordinals above Irina. Again anyone who thinks U.S location didnt majorly impact scoring in SLC, especialy in the ladies SP, is living under a rock.

  12. #152
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    The GWG were Sasha's first international competition in almost a year and before that had only done a limited amount of senior international competitions. Fumie had already skated at worlds. She was top 10 in 2001. Reputation is always important and Sasha didn't have as much but got some and then skated great the 2002 Olympics. Even with the fall. It's not like Fumie's and Sasha's scores or their ranking were far apart at the GWG.

    Sasha's short at the 2002 Olympics was breathtaking. Even with the slight issue with the footwork pattern.

  13. #153

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    Michelle's quality of skating is miles ahead of Maria. It's evident. Layback, the combo spin, and even the flying spin was better executed. Her spiral was extremely better than Maria's. Sasha had a better position, but Kwan's flow, ice coverage, depth of edge, speed, and pattern were way superior. Sasha would improve on ice coverage and pattern later on. Kwan's program composition for her SP that was four years old was still world-class and better than the choreography Maria performed. Also, Kwan had the best musical interpretation of the bunch.

    I see strong arguments that Irina should have placed ahead of Kwan considering the flip issue, but not Maria. Remember that even in the SP, 6.0 took the totality of the elements and considered the program as a whole. That played a huge part in why Kwan ended up winning 5 judges. Remember that even the judges that took the error into account still placed Kwan in first (most notably, the Italian judge who gave Kwan a 5.5 on technical merit). I do think the home field helped Kwan sell the routine and skate bigger than she had all season, but the judges have never felt that compelled to give the win to the hometown skater if they did not want to. Even when they do, I think her first place placement was reasonable. Kwan also beat Slutskaya in the SP earlier that season when both made major mistakes.
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  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by tarotx View Post
    The GWG were Sasha's first international competition in almost a year and before that had only done a limited amount of senior international competitions. Fumie had already skated at worlds. She was top 10 in 2001. Reputation is always important and Sasha didn't have as much but got some and then skated great the 2002 Olympics. Even with the fall. It's not like Fumie's and Sasha's scores or their ranking were far apart at the GWG.

    Sasha's short at the 2002 Olympics was breathtaking. Even with the slight issue with the footwork pattern.
    I disagree. Cohen's short was all style and very little substance. The most magical thing was the roar of the American crowd loudly cheering on their own skater (and influencing the judges)

  15. #155
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post
    As for Suguri, that year she was regularly outscoring Cohen all season long. Easily outscored Cohen's clean short at the Goodwill Games, not held in the U.S, and would have beaten her at the worlds post Games even if Cohen had been clean. Only at the Olympics in the U.S was it different.
    I'm not sure I would call it easily outscoring. Judges had Suguri, Cohen, and Liashenko evenly spread between 3-5th :

    http://www.goodwillgames.com/2001_Re..._official.html
    http://www.goodwillgames.com/2001_Re...ml#_free_skate

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwanoverrated View Post
    Anyone who understands the way skating works then, and how everyone was scored all year, would also know no way would you have placements like Sasha 3rd to Fumie's 7th, or even Michelle's 1st to Maria's 5th, anywhere but the U.S. It was so inconsistent with the scoring the entire rest of the season it was just blatant that location determined 80% of the results. Hughes in 4th was normal, but her skate was much below par to her usual short program, even considering they are never great, so again was a U.S based home cooked gift with a cherry on top and made her gold medal possible.
    Yes, and it's because the Olympics were in the U.S. that the SP ordinals were all over the place. If the fix was in, why didn't they make it so that Hughes was much more solidly/easily in 4th?

  17. #157
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    Quote Originally Posted by VIETgrlTerifa View Post
    Michelle's quality of skating is miles ahead of Maria. It's evident. Layback, the combo spin, and even the flying spin was better executed. Her spiral was extremely better than Maria's. Sasha had a better position, but Kwan's flow, ice coverage, depth of edge, speed, and pattern were way superior. Sasha would improve on ice coverage and pattern later on. Kwan's program composition for her SP that was four years old was still world-class and better than the choreography Maria performed. Also, Kwan had the best musical interpretation of the bunch.

    I see strong arguments that Irina should have placed ahead of Kwan considering the flip issue, but not Maria. Remember that even in the SP, 6.0 took the totality of the elements and considered the program as a whole. That played a huge part in why Kwan ended up winning 5 judges. Remember that even the judges that took the error into account still placed Kwan in first (most notably, the Italian judge who gave Kwan a 5.5 on technical merit). I do think the home field helped Kwan sell the routine and skate bigger than she had all season, but the judges have never felt that compelled to give the win to the hometown skater if they did not want to. Even when they do, I think her first place placement was reasonable. Kwan also beat Slutskaya in the SP earlier that season when both made major mistakes.

    I totally disagree that Kwan's skating quality was "miles ahead of Maria" or that her winning the SP in SLC was "reasonable".

    I found Kwan's Rach SP had much more impact back in 1998 at the Olympics. Other than the very easy footwork section, what especially bothered me was that, when she tried to sell the routine, she celebrated after the landing of the flip...I mean, she just got a mandatory deduction and she celebrated, WTF?

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by David21 View Post
    I totally disagree that Kwan's skating quality was "miles ahead of Maria" or that her winning the SP in SLC was "reasonable".

    I found Kwan's Rach SP had much more impact back in 1998 at the Olympics. Other than the very easy footwork section, what especially bothered me was that, when she tried to sell the routine, she celebrated after the landing of the flip...I mean, she just got a mandatory deduction and she celebrated, WTF?
    It was smart strategy. She was trying to fool the judges and get the crowd worked up. It worked.

    But no. There was nothing reasonable about her winning the short. Please. I'm a Kwan fan but I'm a realistic one.

    And I didn't remember that Cohen was so close in ordinals to Liashenko at the GG. Point made.

  19. #159
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    The U.S girls were definitely way overscored in the short program at the 2002 Olympics. The SP results should have been:

    1. Slutskaya
    2. Kwan
    3. Cohen or Suguri
    5. Sebeysten
    6. Butyrskaya
    7. Robinson
    8. Hughes

    More realistically factoring in reputation and what the judges were more likely to do as fenway and kwanoverrated put it though, the results with the Olympics outside Salt Lake City would have been:

    1. Slutskaya
    2. Kwan
    3. Butyrskaya
    4. Suguri
    5. Cohen
    6. Hughes
    7. Sebeysten
    8. Robinson

    Either way the U.S girls were all overmarked and overplaced to what they otherwise would have been or should have been. It is disgusting how even to this day home country advantage vastly affects results. Just look at the Sochi ladies event for proof. If I were ISU president I would threaten any judging panel who comes up with results that indicate any hint of home country bias to receive an extremely long mass suspension. If anything they would be bending over backwards to be slightly stingy to the home country. That looks alot better than the pro American, pro Japanese, pro Canadian, and pro Russian scores we have seen at home for years now.

  20. #160

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    Well, some federations' skaters get the benefit of doubt no matter what country they are in.
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